Oral Questions

1. to the Minister of Finance: Kia orana, Mr Speaker. What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?

I can give you a very recent report on the impact of the Olympics on the New Zealand economy, with Lisa Carrington winning her fourth Olympic medal in the K-1 200m. The economic recovery—

💬 SPEAKER: The member’s getting repetitious already!

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Ha, ha! The economic recovery is continuing to be supported by the export sector. Last week, Statistics New Zealand reported that exports recorded their strongest June month on record, rising by 17 percent on a year earlier to $6 billion. This came off the back of record export values for logs and beef, while dairy products and kiwifruit also experienced strong gains. Nevertheless, there are volatile conditions for our exporters and still challenges. The Government continues to fund the airfreight subsidy scheme to ensure that our exporters can get goods to market in a COVID environment. So far, that scheme has underwritten more than 7,000 flights, carrying over 136,000 tonnes of airfreight, worth around $10 billion.

💬 Dr Duncan Webb: What other reports has he seen on the economy?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well, the economic recovery is also being supported by the manufacturing and services sector. The BNZ-BusinessNZ Performance of Manufacturing Index (PMI) is firmly in expansionary territory, rising by 2.1 points to 60.7 in June. Production and new orders were particularly strong at 64.5 and 63.6 respectively. The BNZ-BusinessNZ Performance of Services Index (PSI) rose 2.3 points to 58.6 in June, driven by expansion in sales and new orders. The BNZ economists noted that combined, the PSI and PMI point to an annual GDP for the June 2021 year of around 4 percent. While our economy is performing strongly, the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic means we cannot be complacent.

💬 Dr Duncan Webb: What other reports has he seen on how business is faring?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The Government’s efforts to secure the recovery have been reflected in the performance of small businesses. Xero’s Small Business Index for June, which was released last week, hit a record monthly high driven by sales and jobs figures. For the fifth successive month, the index remained above 100, rising 17 points to 127, signalling stronger than average small-business activity. Sales across New Zealand jumped 11.7 percent in June, led by retail trade, manufacturing, construction, and hospitality. Jobs growth rose 5 percent, with the strongest regional growth in Northland and the Waikato. Wage growth also continues to increase, rising 3.7 percent year on year in June, its strongest growth rate since January 2020. Xero said, “seeing the … Index reach new heights [was] an encouraging sign that New Zealand’s small business economy [was headed] in the right direction”.

Question No. 2—Health

2. to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by his statement that the employment conditions and pay offer that nurses rejected had been proposed by their own bargaining team; if so, why does he think the nurses’ union has stated this isn’t true?

In response to the first part of the question: yes. In response to the second part of the question: I’m not responsible for the Nurses Organisation’s views.

💬 Jan Logie: What did he hope to achieve by misrepresenting the union’s position—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order! The member can’t make allegations as part of a question when they’re unsubstantiated like that.

💬 Jan Logie: What did the Minister hope to achieve by presenting a position that the nurses’ union believes is untrue outside of the bargaining process, including through a press release, a press conference, Twitter, and a Facebook post?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I did that because when our health sector is under enormous pressure, when the nursing workforce is under extraordinary pressure with a number of serious issues that need to be addressed, including their pay and the resolution of a longstanding pay equity claim and the working conditions that many are under because of the pressure the service is under, it is a serious matter when nurses choose to go on strike, and, certainly, as a consequence of bargaining breaking down, it is important to keep the public informed of what is happening and the background to it.

💬 Jan Logie: Is he aware that when he spoke of “variable response management” as opposed to the correct term “variance response management”, it undermined nurses’ confidence in his understanding of the safe staffing programme his Government proposes to review?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I think the nurses I’ve spoken to fully understand that this Government takes seriously the commitments it entered into in 2018 in relation to the Safe Staffing Accord and the implementation of Care Capacity Demand Management. That scheme has been implemented by 10 DHBs, up to 30 June this year, partially implemented by seven, and three DHBs are way behind on the implementation of it. The DHBs had a deadline of 30 June. It is unsatisfactory and unacceptable that that scheme has not been fully implemented across the system. I’m determined to establish why and to fix it. I sought the agreement of the Nurses Organisation—through the bargaining, at their suggestion—to set up a way to do that. That has been rejected, but I’m going to proceed to establish why that is the case and to fix it anyway.

💬 Jan Logie: Is it true that $10k of the $13,000 increase he said nurses would receive was not actually part of the 2021 multi-employer collective agreement (MECA) offer and will be subject to ratification through a separate pay equity vote outside of MECA bargaining?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: That is not correct. If I can assist the member to understand the structure of the deal that was developed and that was subsequently voted on but rejected by the nurses most recently—there were two components to it. One was the standard cost of living adjustment that was consistent with the pay guidelines developed by the Public Service Commission earlier this year. There was another element that related to what was, effectively, an advance on pay equity in view of the fact that concluding the pay equity claim had taken much longer than both the DHBs and the Nurses Organisation had anticipated, but it was a way of getting additional income into the nurses’ pockets. In any event, that was rejected.

💬 Jan Logie: Does he support the DHBs taking the Nurses Organisation to the Employment Court over unsafe staffing levels when nurses have been raising the alarm about ongoing unsafe staffing levels for years?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I’m not responsible for the decisions that the DHBs as employers take in their industrial relations environment except to say that it has been an issue for some months now that there is uncertainty and a lack of clarity about the commitments that both the DHBs and the Nurses Organisation have signed up to in relation to life-preserving services, which is a commitment that the Nurses Organisation gives to DHBs when industrial action takes place. In view of that uncertainty and that lack of clarity and the inability to reach agreement with the Nurses Organisation prior to the next round of industrial action, the DHBs have decided to get a ruling from the courts on exactly what meeting life-preserving standards means.

💬 Jan Logie: Does he agree that the nurses and midwives and healthcare workers are themselves in the best position to judge whether the offer will address their primary concern—that staffing levels are dangerously low and putting lives and their wellbeing at risk?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: The workforce that the member refers to is in the best position to determine that. Having determined that, the next step is to find a fix for it, and that is what we’re trying to do.

Question No. 3—Health

3. to the Minister of Health: How many of the 30,000 New Zealanders waiting for overdue hospital procedures could have their procedures done if the $486 million in health restructuring was spent on them?

Thirty thousand New Zealanders are not waiting for overdue hospital procedures; 13,500 people across the whole health system are waiting for treatment—a number which has been exacerbated by the global pandemic. This is why, in 2020, the Government allocated $282.5 million over three years to address the impacts of COVID-19 on waiting lists, and also provided an additional $90 million through Budget 2021. I can assure the member that this funding is achieving results as waiting times continue to reduce, and anyone whose treatment was delayed specifically because of the COVID level 4 lockdown has now been treated. In relation to the $486 million the member refers to, the Government has committed to producing a more equitable health system that better delivers the health services that New Zealanders need. This reform will have a material benefit on waiting lists by producing a more efficient system. There is a cost associated with change, but it is clear that the system must change.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: How many of the more than 30,000 waiting for hospital treatment are waiting for cancer treatment, and have cancer wait times become worse over the last four years under Labour?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I again correct the member. There are not 30,000 New Zealanders waiting for treatment; that number is 13,500. A number of those will be for cancer treatments, but what I can also assure the member is that as a result of the investment made in Budget 2020 of $282.5 million and the further investment of $90 million in Budget 2021, those waiting lists are coming down and cancer treatments are improving.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: What does he say to the woman with terminal cancer who was made to wait more than 30 hours in Wellington Regional Hospital’s emergency department for a bed, and how many beds would $486 million fund?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: It is most regrettable that the person to whom the member refers was left waiting for that length of time, as indeed many New Zealanders are experiencing at hospitals that are under extraordinary pressure. The Capital and Coast District Health Board is a hospital that is under considerable pressure at the moment, and that is why the Ministry of Health has stood up a task force of senior clinicians to work with those hospitals who are experiencing that pressure to assist them to deal with the pressure that they’re under and improve patient flow through their hospital.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: Can he guarantee that his health restructure won’t further increase the number of New Zealanders who are forced to wait for overdue hospital treatment?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: The way we have approached the health reform process is exactly to fund additional personnel to manage through the change process so that the business-as-usual processes of our hospital system are not affected. Hospitals have been under unusual pressure this year partly because, as a result of COVID last year, the number of infections and winter infections that would ordinarily happen did not happen, and that has led to an unusually high number of infections, particularly respiratory infections and respiratory syncytial virus, that has put extraordinary pressure on our hospitals this year. I’m confident that with the work that the ministry’s doing to support hospitals, their clinical leadership, and their management, they are getting through what has been a very difficult winter.

💬 Hon Chris Hipkins: Can the Minister confirm that the increased emphasis on public and primary healthcare that the health reforms are designed to achieve, among other things, will result in fewer people needing to have more complex care in the future?

💬 Dr Shane Reti: When? A debatable point.

💬 SPEAKER: Was that Dr Reti?

💬 Dr Shane Reti: It was me.

💬 SPEAKER: Are you trying to lose supplementaries for the rest of your team?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I can say that that is a primary objective of the healthcare reforms, and, in fact, of the $486 million to fund the transition. A large chunk of that is for commissioning services, including new forms of commissioning primary and community services just so we start to get a lead on improving that front-line healthcare.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: What does he say to the pregnant mother at North Shore Hospital who was already in her theatre gown for a semi-urgent caesarean section but was then told that due to pressures on theatres, she would have to drive herself to Waitakere Hospital and to google how to get there?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: All I can say to that person is that they have been treated appallingly badly, and that is, again, most regrettable. But it would have probably been assisted a lot more if the previous Government had invested barely $1 billion in nine years of Government, whereas we have invested $5.5 billion in infrastructure because the system has been so badly run down.

💬 Hon Grant Robertson: In light of that answer, can the Minister confirm that this year’s health budget is 45 percent higher than the last year of the health budget when the National Party were in office?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I can say that this Government, because Labour Governments are public health system Governments, has invested considerably more in the four years we have been in Government than the previous Government did, not only operational funding but capital funding as well. The previous Government had two years in a row where they invested absolutely nothing in the infrastructure of our health system, and that’s why we’re having to fix it up.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: Can he confirm that the funding for additional support in Vote Health this year is roughly 30 percent than additional support in Vote Health last year?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I know that member is obsessed about trying to demonstrate there’s been a cut in health funding, and there hasn’t been. So there has been an increase—yet another increase—in operational health funding for our public health services this year, but the increase this year was not as great as the one last year. But there has been an increase, as this Government does when it is in Government—it significantly increases health spending for the benefit of the people who need it most.

Question No. 4—Housing

4. to the Minister of Housing: Meitaki maata, Vaa Tuatua. What recent announcements has she made about funding infrastructure to enable new housing in Porirua?

Kia orana. Last month, I was pleased to announce the Government is investing $136 million into infrastructure in Porirua from the Housing Acceleration Fund, the first drawdown of this fund. This investment will improve sewerage, storm water, and water storage infrastructure and result in capacity for 2,000 additional houses in Porirua. We acknowledge that there is more to do, and this investment is an important milestone in the Government’s housing plans through our large-scale projects. I’m proud that we’re taking action that will enable more houses and improve the surrounding environment.

💬 Barbara Edmonds: Meitaki. How will this result in better housing outcomes?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: Upgrading the waste-water infrastructure in Porirua and increasing the capacity for water storage is needed to get new housing consented. Getting this infrastructure in place quickly is vital to getting more houses built and is exactly why we launched the Housing Acceleration Fund. Funding will be used to address land remediation and development work around Cannons Creek. Together, these investments will provide capacity for an additional 2,000 homes on private- and Government-owned land.

💬 Barbara Edmonds: Meitaki. How will this project help create employment and training opportunities?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: This work will be undertaken by the Te Aranga Alliance, with an important focus on creating employment and training opportunities. The alliance will emphasise hiring and upskilling local workers wherever possible, which will help lead people into sustainable jobs in a booming industry that badly needs more workers. Initial estimates indicate up to 250 jobs could be created alongside opportunities for contractors.

Question No. 5—Finance

5. to the Minister of Finance: Is he satisfied that the Government’s investment of taxpayer funds reflects its priorities?

Yes, the Government’s policy priorities for the three-year term are continuing to keep New Zealanders safe from COVID19, accelerating the recovery and rebuild from the impacts of COVID-19, and laying the foundations for the future—including addressing key issues such as climate change, housing affordability, and child poverty. The investments we are making are focused on addressing these priorities; at the risk of testing the Speaker’s patience, I’ll run through just a few examples. We’re continuing to keep New Zealanders safe from COVID-19, through the nationwide vaccination programme, with nearly 2 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine being administered to New Zealanders, while our investments in the managed isolation facilities continue to keep New Zealanders safe from the virus and our economy able to operate with fewer restrictions than nearly any other country. We’re accelerating the recovery through our record investments in infrastructure, training record numbers of apprentices—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! The member’s answered the question.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: Is funding $2.75 million for a meth programme run by a Mongrel Mob member a higher priority than giving money to a successful mental health programme?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The member knows that the programme he’s referring to is about getting people off methamphetamine. The most important thing we can do in that space, in this House, is undertake programmes that work. It is not about funding a gang; it is about funding getting people off meth.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: Does he consider spending of up to $15 billion on light rail in Auckland a higher priority than the plethora of New Zealand upgrade roading projects now delayed or cancelled?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I think that light rail in Auckland is a very important investment in making sure that we have transport moving around our city. But the member doesn’t need to see this as a zero-sum game. There’s about $6.8 billion of funding there—

💬 Hon Member: But the people of Mill Road do.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order!

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: —in that programme, plus another $2 billion that have been added. We are able to do both of those things, Mr Woodhouse.

💬 SPEAKER: I just want to say that the member doesn’t have a gentle voice—the Minister answering the question—but the volume of interjection has got too much. I think I’ve told members that I have received in the last sitting block quite a lot of correspondence about noise that’s come from one party in particular that has meant that people who are at home have trouble hearing the response. [Interruption] It’s good to have all the premature pleas of not guilty.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: Is $486 million on a new health bureaucracy a higher priority than spending $486 million on front-line services to clear the waiting list backlog?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I’m pleased to say that the Government’s investing significant resources in both of those things. The first of those is about making sure that we’ve got a health system that is actually fit for purpose. It’s about creating a Māori health authority that will deliver—for the first time, probably, in New Zealand’s health system’s history—outcomes that will be more positive for Māori. It’s about making sure that wherever you live, you get the services that you deserve, and, also, we can deliver on front-line services. The member needs to understand that these are not zero-sum games.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: Do his comments regarding the proposed Northern Pathway this morning indicate he has had a cycleway to Damascus experience and that the priority of that project over other harbour crossings is now being reconsidered?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: No. What it means is that this Government is getting on with the job of making sure that the second harbour crossing is under way. Around $50 million is dedicated to that—including completing the business case.

💬 David Seymour: So is the Government backpedalling on the bike bridge?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: No.

Question No. 6—Social Development and Employment

6. to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Meitaki maata, Vaa Tuatua. What reports has she seen on the number of people receiving the main benefit?

Kia orana, Mr Speaker. The Ministry of Social Development (MSD) recently released the benefit statistics for the June quarter. They show main benefit numbers fell by 11,193. At the end of the June quarter, there were 354,744 people receiving a main benefit, with 110,790 people receiving a job seeker work-ready benefit. This is well below forecasts which showed up to 490,000 people could be in receipt of a main benefit due to the COVID-19 pandemic. We are also seeing encouraging signs that the numbers of main benefit continues to trend down over the month of July.

💬 Glen Bennett: What Government investments have impacted these results?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: When we came into Government, we noticed a significant decline had occurred in front-line, work-focused case management, and took action to ensure we made investments to support more employment-focused activity. This includes investing in 263 new front-line staff in Budget 2019 to help people into work, $150 million in Budget 2020, and $99 million in Budget 2021 invested into employment services and products, and a further $86 million in Budget 2021 to sustain the MSD staff needed to deliver income and case management services. This investment has paid off, with around 31,240 people being placed into employment in the last quarter, the second-highest number since records began, since 1996.

💬 Glen Bennett: What other programmes have contributed to these results?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: The Government is also working hard to reduce the skills gap between the available jobs and available labour. Flexi-wage has seen 4,782 people placed in employment since it was expanded in February, and Apprenticeship Boost, which now has supported 30,031 people into a trade. I’ve also been encouraged by the results from the Mayors Taskforce for Jobs, which has worked with Government to create 1,326 sustainable full-time jobs across regional New Zealand. It is clear that our plan for recovery is creating jobs and supporting New Zealanders back into upskilling, training, and work.

Question No. 7—Social Development and Employment

7. to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she have confidence the Government is doing all it can to keep young people in emergency housing safe; if so, why?

When we came into Government, we inherited an emergency housing special needs grants and emergency housing process that virtually had no safeguards in place. During our time, we have moved to ensure all that are receiving an emergency housing special needs grant are in active case management; we have housing brokers to support them into housing that is more sustainable, secure, and stable than emergency accommodation; we have set up navigators to support those in emergency accommodation with wraparound supports; we have set up a complaints process so the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) can receive and respond to any safety or suitability concerns; we have worked with the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development and councils to contract spaces in Rotorua to ensure people are appropriately cohorted, and we are going to roll out this particular model to other parts of New Zealand where there are emergency housing hotspots.

We don’t want to see any New Zealanders requiring emergency accommodation, but we inherited a housing crisis, and whilst we have been building houses as quickly as possible, there are still New Zealanders—including some young New Zealanders—requiring emergency housing support. Is there more to do? Yes, and we are committed always to looking at ways to improve the supports that we have in place.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: How can she have confidence when a young woman staying in an emergency housing motel said on Newshub Nation, “I would feel terrified, because my room that I’m currently in has been broken into so many times, and I had to start putting my table and chair by the sliding and main doors.”?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: No one would deem that acceptable, and I saw that particular report myself and, of course, felt absolute empathy for that young woman.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: What did you do about it? What are you doing about it?

💬 SPEAKER: Order! The Hon Louise Upston knows how to address Ministers, and it’s not like that. She’s been here for a very long time and should know better.

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: This is one of the reasons that we have put a complaints process in place, so that people can come back to MSD if there are safety or suitability concerns of the emergency accommodation that they’re in. In the last 12 weeks, I think we have received about 40 complaints, but I would encourage anyone that experiences that type of scenario to certainly get in touch with MSD. I would also say that where MSD absolutely accepts that they have a responsibility to work with people to ensure that they’re in suitable and safe accommodation, the motelier has a responsibility to ensure that those rooms are secure as well, and our police also have a role to play a part when there is criminal activity that people are experiencing.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: How can she have confidence when a front-line worker said, “We’ve had a lot of rangatahi … get exposed to sexual trauma” and “they haven’t come into emergency housing with an addiction, [but] they often leave with one.”?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Just to clarify, I did see the report. It was a front-line Lifewise worker—and it’s important to clarify—not an MSD case manager, and I absolutely respect the work that Lifewise is doing with our young people, particularly in the housing space. It is not acceptable—that is why we’ve put a complaints process in place, and where we have social services and organisations, like Lifewise, who are working directly with vulnerable young people who have those experiences, we hope that they would feel like the communication is there, that they’re able to contact MSD to actually inform them of these situations as well, so we can work together to keep our young people safe.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: When will the Gang Intelligence Centre information start to keep people in emergency housing safe, given MSD and Police only started working on emergency housing cooperation arrangements in May this year?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I reiterate what I said in the House previously: none of the regional commissioners around the country have indicated that there has been an escalating presence or demand for emergency accommodation grants through MSD in recent months or the time that we have been in place. So the fact that the member keeps bringing this up, I think, unfortunately is more of an attempt to stigmatise those that are in emergency accommodation.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Why did the Minister say, just last month, that “gangs taking up emergency accommodation is not a huge issue”, when a front-line worker said, “It’s just intimidating for our rangatahi, especially if they’re not connected to any gang. Often they leave; they are then connected to a gang after they leave emergency housing.”?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: As I said, I respect the work that Lifewise are doing, and it’s important that we continue to work together to keep those in emergency accommodation safe, and to improve the system where we can.

Question No. 8—Building and Construction

8. to the Minister for Building and Construction: Meitaki ‘atupaka, Vaa Tuatua. Tēnā koe, Mr Speaker. What recent reports has she seen regarding building consents?

Meitaki humaria, Vaa Tuatua. I’ve seen a report from Statistics New Zealand that shows the number of building consents has broken yet another record, with 44,299 new homes having been consented in the year ended June 2021—another all-time high. This is an increase of 18 percent from the June 2020 year, with 4,310 new dwellings consented in June alone. These figures demonstrate just how far we’ve come in the last year since facing the initial disruptions of COVID-19. We’ve responded to the sector uncertainty by investing in the sector to keep the momentum going to deliver the warm, dry, safe houses that New Zealanders need.

💬 Shanan Halbert: What do these figures show for Tāmaki-makau-rau—Auckland?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: In Auckland, the annual number of new homes consented rose 29 percent in the June 2020-21 year, including a 51 percent rise in multi-unit homes. Higher density and modular offsite manufacturing methods are key to helping New Zealand with healthy, modern, and affordable homes that we need.

💬 Shanan Halbert: How is the Government supporting the building and construction sector to build on this growth in consents?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: As a Government, we are committed to supporting the sector through the continued investment in trades training and apprenticeships, our building legislative reform programme, and improvement to our planning system by repealing and replacing the Resource Management Act. We’re also ensuring that we have the capacity to meet this increasing demand. Through Construction Skills Action Plan initiatives, more than 9,300 people have taken up education or employment opportunities in the construction sector since 2008.

Question No. 9—Housing

9. to the Minister of Housing: What is the combined value of properties Government housing agencies have purchased since October 2017 and is she satisfied that, in all cases, these purchases have been good value for money?

For the purposes of this answer, I’ve interpreted “housing agencies” to be the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development and Kāinga Ora. Since October 2017, they have made purchases via the following programmes: $377.44 million worth of land via the Land for Housing Programme, which has contracted or delivered 2,037 new homes, with the potential for 6,000 to 7,000 more; $146.4 million worth of KiwiBuild homes, representing 321 homes, but it is important to note that of that $146.4 million, $144.5 million has already been recycled back in; $771 million associated with purchasing approximately 1,186 State houses—again, it is important to note that this represents just 22 percent of total State houses delivered over the period, which is significantly lower than the 67 percent reached under the previous National Government. For further context, there were around 85,000 homes sold last calendar year in New Zealand, and of those, Kāinga Ora bought 385. That is 0.45 percent of the total houses sold. In the last two financial years, we have also purchased $366.5 million worth of transitional housing, delivering 542 homes. Of course, within our redevelopments of State housing land, we’ve enabled 1,884 market houses to be built. There is also vacant land purchased under the public housing build programme, as well as other agencies who will purchase property from time to time, such as the Temporary Accommodation Service at the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. In answer to the second part of the question, if the member means the Government recognising there’s a crisis, and actually doing something about it and delivering houses, then, yes, I do believe we are getting value for money.

💬 Nicola Willis: How many houses could have been built with the more than a billion dollars that Government housing agencies have spent buying up public and transitional houses from the private market?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: The very comprehensive list I just went through to the member totalled to $1.5 billion that has been spent over that period, which has delivered between 10,086 and 12,970 homes. If the member is asking, “Why don’t you just build more houses instead of buying them?”, that is exactly what we have rebuilt our housing provider, Kāinga Ora, to be able to do. Coming off a period of nine years where they failed to deliver any houses, the agency became a house-selling agency. We had to rebuild the capacity so we’re no longer buying in 67 percent of the houses. In fact, we’ve got that down into the 20 percents, and we intend to do even better, because we know there is a housing crisis in New Zealand.

💬 Nicola Willis: Why did the Government pay almost double the capital value for the Boulevard Motel in Rotorua at a cost of $8.1 million—that is, $270,000 per motel unit?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: The member is taking a very simplistic analysis to this. So the purchase price was $8.17 million including GST. An independent valuation that was provided in June of this year was $8.5 million. The rateable value (RV) was $4.31 million. I would note to the member that residential properties in Rotorua are selling, on average, 25 percent RV, as well as a range of other factors. But I would also note this is in line with previous purchases of motels, such as the Takanini motel that had a statutory rating valuation of $1.3 million but the purchase price was $2.65 million—this was, of course, in December 2016—the Eastland Motel, that had a statutory rating value of $910,000 but the purchase cost was $2.1 million—this was in June 2017—The Clansman Motel, a statutory rating valuation of $900,000 but was purchased for $1.84 million—this was also in June of 2017. Then—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! I think it’s now getting repetitious.

💬 Nicola Willis: How many more motels does the Government plan to buy this year, and will the due diligence for those purchases include a comparative assessment of how many houses could be built with that cash?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: We’re looking at a range of options in Rotorua where they make good housing sense. I think, as I’ve just outlined in the answer to the previous supplementary, the previous Government—of which the member is a member of that party—certainly went on a bit of a spree, as it came up to the 2017 election, of buying motels after no action on delivering transitional housing. Where we are buying motels in Rotorua, it’s where it makes good housing sense, and where there is, indeed, potential for redevelopment of that land for longer-term housing prospects. We’re not prepared to just deny there is a housing crisis and do nothing about it.

💬 Hon Chris Hipkins: Has the Minister seen any other examples of motels being purchased above their rateable values?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: There is indeed a pattern, as I said in 2017, as we came up to the election that year—

💬 SPEAKER: No, no. Order! I think there are some pretty clear Speakers’ rulings about Government members not putting up patsies in order to bash the Opposition.

💬 Nicola Willis: What investigations has she conducted into an allegation by a real estate agent that Kāinga Ora “Have approached our company and said that they are happy to pay up to $200,000 over the asking price if the auction falls through.”, and can the Minister categorically guarantee that Kāinga Ora are not pumping up house prices in this way?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: I heard the same allegation on talkback radio as the member is quoting in the House today. I also invited that caller to get in touch with me and to give me the evidence. I have asked officials if there is any substance to the allegation of the talkback caller. They have said that they can find absolutely no evidence of it, but if that member has any evidence of the talkback caller—just like with the homeless man allegedly checking in to the managed isolation and quarantine facility—I ask the member to bring that evidence to me.

Question No. 10—Prime Minister

10. to the Prime Minister: My question is to the Prime Minister, and I wish her well in getting well soon. Does she stand by all her Government’s policies and statements?

on behalf of the Prime Minister: I thank the “Leader of the Opposition” for his question. Yes.

💬 David Seymour: How does apologising for immigration policies before she was born help those people separated from their children for over a year by Government policy today?

On behalf of the Prime Minister, the apology that the Prime Minister issued on Sunday was for an egregious use of the State’s power over 40 years ago. I would hope that all members of this House would support that approach to try to deal with some of the trauma that has been experienced by those in the communities who were raided in that way. I don’t accept the comparison the member’s making in his question.

💬 David Seymour: Wouldn’t the apology be more sincere if the Government did undertake to help those having their families torn apart by contemporary immigration policy, such as those who gathered outside Parliament this afternoon and were meeting in Auckland at exactly the time the apology was being made but not one of the Government’s 28 Ministers attended?

The apology made by the Prime Minister on Sunday was sincere.

💬 David Seymour: Does the Government stand by its policy of building a bike bridge across the Waitematā Harbour with a benefit-cost ratio of 0.4, and how will that help solve the very real problem of a shortage of housing?

The Government stands by its policy of ensuring that we have strong linkages between the North Shore and the isthmus of Auckland. That is a multimodal solution. It includes making sure that we build a second harbour crossing with a public transport - centric focus; $50 million has been allocated for the business case of that. It also includes making sure that we can have walking and cycling access between North Shore and the isthmus.

💬 David Seymour: How will debt to income ratios on mortgage lending announced today help young people who already cannot afford skyrocketing house prices?

Those were not announced today; the Governor of the Reserve Bank announced that he was beginning a consultation on that proposal.

💬 David Seymour: How do bans on gay conversion therapy help New Zealanders suffering from people breaking the laws that already exist and the Government doesn’t enforce, with rising crime on the streets up and down New Zealand?

I’m not 100 percent sure I can draw the exact comparison that the member’s doing. I think he’s comparing, sort of, oranges and wombats. He should, I hope, want to be a part of a Parliament where we make sure that young people are not put in a position where conversion practices are put upon them. That I would hope, and I thought I’d previously heard the member support that legislation.

💬 David Seymour: When will her Minister of Finance answer the significant number of unanswered and one-week-overdue written parliamentary questions from me about the Government’s adherence to the Public Finance Act?

On behalf of the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance informs me those questions have been answered.

💬 David Seymour: Why have the questions not been answered as of 2 o’clock today?

On behalf of the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance informs me he signed them off at least 24 to 48 hours ago.

Question No. 11—Immigration

11. to the Minister of Immigration: Kia orana, Mr Speaker. What announcements has the Government made in relation to the RSE scheme for next season’s harvest?

Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, we announced that the Government will work to open up one-way quarantine-free travel to New Zealand from Samoa, Tonga, and Vanuatu for Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) scheme workers without having to use the managed isolation and quarantine system. I meet with the leaders of the hort’ and viticulture sector every fortnight, and I’ve heard directly the difficulties they have faced as a result of the COVID border closures. We are committed to working with them to ensure they get the required RSE workers for the upcoming harvest. I also note that this will have a positive impact on the Pacific nations. This is also important for a New Zealand perspective, given the challenges that COVID has had on many of our Pacific neighbours.

💬 Anna Lorck: How has this announcement on RSE been received?

💬 Hon KRIS FAAFOI: I am aware of reports of growers expressing strong support for the Government’s decision around the one-way quarantine-free travel arrangement. Horticulture New Zealand chief executive, Nadine Tunley, has said that this means a huge amount to our growers. Central Otago mayor, Tim Cadogan, said the announcement was fantastic news for local fruitgrowers, and New Zealand Apples and Pears CEO, Alan Pollard, said he was really delighted that workers were going to be able to have an opportunity to participate back in the workforce here and return those much-needed funds back to their community. I’d like to thank Alan for his text last night, too.

💬 Anna Lorck: How has the Government been working with the sector leaders in the lead-up to the RSE announcement?

💬 Hon KRIS FAAFOI: As I mentioned, Minister O’Connor and I have been meeting with the hort’ and vit’ sector leadership on a fortnightly basis to work through the impacts of the closed border on their sectors. Conversations have been very constructive. In the most recent engagement last week, I discussed our objectives for quarantine-free travel with the Pacific and they’ve taken the news well, as I’ve said. Again, I’d like to thank the hort’ and vit’ sector leaders for their engagement. It has not always been easy, but it has always been respectful.

💬 Erica Stanford: Can the Minister explain why only RSE workers from Samoa, Tonga, and Vanuatu are allowed to skip MIQ, and not other workers from these countries, given this is the tightest labour market in 40 years?

💬 Hon KRIS FAAFOI: As you can imagine, one of the key components of us coming to an arrangement with the Pacific around quarantine-free travel is the health and safety of those Pacific nations. We want to stage the ability of bringing people through quarantine-free travel, and being able to start that with RSE workers is a good way to start. We hope that if we can continue along that path and it is both safe for New Zealand and safe for the Pacific, we will be able to expand the number of people coming from those three countries and beyond the Pacific. I think the member might want to have a look at the experience of Fiji over the last two or three months to make sure that we are taking into consideration the safety of the Pacific nations and the health of the Pacific nations when we are making these decisions. The RSE decision is great for our hort’ and vit’ sector here, but, fundamentally, we want to make sure our Pacific neighbours are safe as well. And I’m sure that members of the Opposition would like to do that too.

Question No. 12—Police

12. to the Minister of Police: Does she stand by her statement when referring to an interview with Harry Tam about the funding granted to his organisation that “It sounded like a recruitment drive for the gangs”; if so, has she expressed any concern about this to the Prime Minister?

Meitaki maata e Vaa Tuatua. In a rare misstep for that member, he has taken my quote out of context! I was commenting on an interview with Harry Tam where he failed to talk about the harm that’s caused to women and children who try to escape gangs and where he failed to talk about the harm that meth causes to communities. That’s what I have expressed to the Prime Minister and to this House—that we can’t simply arrest our way to success. That’s why this Government will always be tough on crime and tough on the drivers of crime. The programme the member refers to gets to people that other drug rehabilitation services simply don’t reach or can be effective with. This approach isn’t new; it’s based on a programme the National Government developed for the Notorious chapter of the Mongrel Mob.

💬 Simeon Brown: Does she think it is appropriate to grant $2.75 million to an organisation that is run by a Mongrel Mob member that she described as being on a recruitment drive for gang membership when gang membership has increased by over 50 percent under this Government?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: I’ve been very clear that the lead agency on this programme of—[Interruption]

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! The member will resume her seat. Do members on this side want an answer?

💬 Hon Member: Yes.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, if they do, they will be quiet.

💬 Matt Doocey: Point of order, Mr Speaker. A member of the Government interjected while Simeon Brown was asking the primary question, and now you’re pulling us up. How is that fair?

💬 SPEAKER: I had no trouble hearing Simeon Brown, because his mike was on and all of us could hear him. The interjections were going right across the microphones into mine and interfering with the answer.

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: I’ve been really clear that the lead agency on this work is the Ministry of Health and they are funding a programme that fundamentally works. It’s been proven to work. We are not funding the gangs; we are funding a programme.

💬 Simeon Brown: Does she stand by her statement “gangs pedal meth, meth destroys our communities”, and, if so, was the Government wrong to sign off on $2.75 million to an organisation run by a lifetime Mongrel Mob member?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: I stand by my statement. Meth harms our communities. Gangs pedal meth. The Ministry of Health is the lead agency on a programme that works. We are funding the programme.

💬 Simeon Brown: Does she trust Harry Tam in light of her statement: “I’m sure gangs pedal meth and they do that by recruiting young people”, and, if so, does she agree it is in the interests of gangs to keep people addicted to meth?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: We are talking about wanting to disrupt the harm that gangs do to our communities. They entice, they encourage young people into gangs, and this Government is working damn hard to ensure that there are exit points for our young people to get out of the gangs.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! The time for oral questions is concluded. I have received a letter from David Seymour seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 the actions and comments of the Minister of Education regarding special-needs education in public schools. This is a particular case of recent occurrence—

💬 Simeon Brown: Point of order.

💬 SPEAKER: The member can’t possibly have a point of order relating to this.

💬 Simeon Brown: I’ve got one more supplementary.

💬 SPEAKER: Sorry?

💬 Simeon Brown: I’ve got one more supplementary.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, I apologise; the member does have one. I probably thought I should have taken one away, but I’ll keep going.

💬 Simeon Brown: Thank you, Mr Speaker. What does she say to Police Association president, Chris Cahill, who likened this funding to money laundering, saying, “Police take $2m of dirty money—as they recently did from the Notorious chapter of the Mongrel Mob—”

💬 SPEAKER: The member’s question’s completed.

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: I have a lot of respect for the work Chris Cahill does for the Police Association, and I agree with him on many topics, including front-line safety improvement programmes which keep our police safe, because they do a really difficult job keeping our communities safe. However, I will reiterate, we spent money on a programme led by the Ministry of Health. This programme supports those people to get out of their addictions to meth. We are funding a programme; we are not funding the gang.

💬 Chris Bishop: Point of order. I just want to query why you cut off my colleague’s question—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume his seat. It’s not up to me to educate the member on the Standing Orders at this time.