Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill

Clause 12 concerns honorary fellows. Those who have been following the debate—and I am sure there are many following it on television and on the radio tonight, as well members in the Chamber—will know that we have been patiently working our way through the various categories of membership of the Royal Society and the impact that this legislation has upon those categories. We now come to the question of honorary fellows.

As previously discussed, to be a Fellow of the Royal Society is the ultimate accolade of scientific excellence, technological excellence, and now excellence in the humanities. We have 360-odd fellows.

💬 Hon Member: They’re not odd.

Exactly. I have to correct that description. They are not odd fellows; I am saying that there are about 360 fellows of the Royal Society. Honorary fellows are those whom the academy council, in accordance with by-laws, admit. The main difference here—and this is the question that my colleague Carol Beaumont raised earlier in relation to honorary members—is that the person is not normally resident in New Zealand. This is the chance for the Royal Society of New Zealand to recognise people outside of New Zealand who have scientific excellence.

My understanding is that generally speaking the people involved in this are people who have had a connection with New Zealand. They have perhaps come here and worked or studied for a period of time, or perhaps they are working in collaboration with a New Zealand scientist on a project and that has led them to have a connection with the Royal Society. The other important element of becoming an honorary fellow is that they have rendered eminent service to science or technology, and with the change we are making here in clause 12, that will become science, technology, or the humanities.

The person who is admitted as an honorary fellow is not required to pay any levies to the society and is not entitled to vote in respect of any matters before the academy council, which is to be renamed the academy executive committee under various clauses. Also, they are not allowed to hold office in the society. This is the time for the Royal Society of New Zealand to recognise people who have delivered excellence in science but are not normally resident in New Zealand. It is, I think, an important part of how the Royal Society operates that there is this position within the membership structure.

As we have noted, having the different classes of membership provides different levels of recognition. I want to respond in that context to my colleague Rajen Prasad’s question about whether there are too many categories of membership. I do not think so. I think each category covers a very specific part of what it means to be in the Royal Society. The fellows are those who have reached the highest pinnacle of excellence in their field. The companions are those who have given encouragement and advancement to New Zealanders’ knowledge and understanding of science, and they are not necessarily scientists themselves. The ordinary members are people with an interest in science and a background in science, who, as we know, can progress to being professional members and indeed honorary members.

I think that all of those categories represent different parts of what it means to work within the Royal Society, and here in clause 12 we have the honorary fellows, which is yet another example of where the Royal Society can reach out internationally. We know that that is important to the scientists within the Royal Society.

Academic scholarship requires people to look outside of their own national boundaries and look internationally. People working in very similar fields—fields at the cutting edge of science, like nanotechnology—have to work across country borders to make sure they can make the advances that are deemed necessary.

When we look at the list of honorary fellows on the Royal Society website, we see that we have people from all over the world, from disciplines like physics, earth and ocean sciences, geographical sciences, biology, and electrochemical science and technology. We have people from the United States, from Australia, from Japan, and from the United Kingdom. There is a range of people who are, for the most part, not resident in New Zealand, although, for example, Nigel Priestley from Christchurch, who is currently resident in Christchurch, is an honorary fellow although he is normally based offshore. This clause expands for that range of membership the question of the humanities.

I am delighted to take a call on clause 12 because I need to correct my previous contribution. I had a slight mismatch there. I referred to James Belich as an honorary member, but he is actually an honorary fellow. But one of the points that I have outstanding from my last contribution, which I would love the member in the chair, Grant Robertson, to respond to, is that I am still not entirely clear on how changing section 17(1)(b), as set out in clause 12, by omitting “science or technology” and substituting “science, technology, or the humanities” means that in practice a different set of honorary fellows will be included under the Royal Society.

I would like to demonstrate that point by talking about some of the honorary fellows currently listed, because at the moment in the legislation—and listed in more detail, I think members will find, by the Royal Society in its public space—honorary fellows are listed as being those who are seen to support the activities of the Royal Society. But they are not necessarily those whom we would deem to be—unlike, perhaps, the companions and the honorary members—contained just within the realm of the sciences.

Glancing through the list of the honorary fellows already listed, I was intrigued to see that a number of those whom I consider to be within the area of the humanities are already included. I am intrigued to know whether this provision is merely a legislative change for the sake of consistency with all of the other definitional changes rather than something that in practice will change the types of honorary fellows that we already have.

As I was saying before, when glancing through the list of honorary fellows—strictly those affected by clause 12—I saw that there were a number within the sciences whom I am ashamed to admit I was not familiar with. Again, I ask the member in charge of the bill, Grant Robertson, whether he could explain to me the perceived role of the honorary fellows. If that role is the promotion of the sciences and the work of the Royal Society, I would be really interested in that. I like to consider myself fairly engaged, not necessarily strictly in the world of the scientists but with those eminent New Zealanders who are working at the cutting edge. If that is the role of the honorary fellows, I would like to see an enhancement of that, perhaps with more opportunity for our honorary fellows to be present in our schools.

Scientists in Schools was an excellent programme—that is a small plug from Labour; it was a Labour Government initiative that was scrapped by National. Perhaps we could put our honorary fellows into our schools as a way of promoting the sciences. We are sixth in the OECD for sciences when we are at school, but something happens when young New Zealanders exit our education system into optional education, particularly tertiary education. We stop studying science, but studying science is what we need to do if we are going to be at the cutting edge in growing our economy.

I will list some of the honorary fellows that some members may be familiar with. I was glancing through and saw that not only is James Belich an honorary fellow but that Alan Bollard is an honorary fellow, as is Sally Casswell—and, again, I would see her as dabbling a little beyond strictly the sciences. Members will know that she is a public health advocate who works in the alcohol space, in particular. David Fergusson is also a fellow, and obviously there is a bit more of the sciences in there, with his work on the longitudinal studies of growing up in New Zealand. He has made a lasting contribution from New Zealand’s perspective to the world of science.

Sir Paul Callaghan is a fellow. Most members of the Committee will know who Sir Paul Callaghan is because he has been recognised not just as a scientist or as an honorary Fellow of the Royal Society but as New Zealander of the Year. I think that that has enabled him to be lifted into the broader public consciousness, and that is fantastic. Some members will be interested to know that he is particularly well-renowned for his nuclear development resonance, his pulsed gradient spin echo research, his dynamic nuclear magnetic resonance microscopy, his scattering formulisation for pulsed gradient spin echo nuclear magnetic resonance, and his pulsed gradient spin echo electron spin resonance in a quasi - one-dimensional conductor. Yet if I ask—

The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson): The member’s time has expired.

💬 Hon Dr Wayne Mapp: Give her more. She needs more time.

The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson): I call the honourable member Jacinda Ardern.

Thank you very much. I think it actually might have been the Minister who enabled me to take my second call. I have just given a list of the areas that one of the honorary fellows is well-renowned for within the science field. If I asked members of the Committee what Sir Paul Callaghan had been recognised for, I wonder whether they would have mentioned anything on that list—the pulsed gradient spin echo electron spin resonance in a quasi - one-dimensional conductor, in particular.

I was not aware that in a global sense Sir Paul Callaghan’s work on nuclear development resonance was something that he has been recognised for. If I ask members of this Committee what they recognise this honorary fellow for, what would it be? I think it would be his contribution to the debate on the role of science within New Zealand and within the New Zealand economy. Off the back of being awarded the title of New Zealander of the Year, he has embarked on a bit of a roadshow around New Zealand, talking about the fact that, in his view, we currently choose to be poor in New Zealand. We choose to be poor because we invest in a low-wage economy.

As an honorary fellow, Sir Paul sees his role—as has been set out by the Royal Society on the website, and within the legislation—as supporting the activities of the Royal Society. He has become a true promoter of science as a way to grow New Zealand’s economy, and as a way for us to become a wealthier nation, and a nation in which we can grab onto the things that New Zealanders are proud of, such as an entrepreneurial spirit, and the idea that we do not have to be the best at everything but can be the best at a few small things. We can be the best not at building health equipment but at building sleep apnoea equipment—the kinds of things that if we multiply them over hundred times, suddenly we turn our economy round.

As an honorary fellow, as recognised by the Royal Society, I am sure that that was probably a starting point for Sir Paul Callaghan to take on the mantra of not just being the scientist who investigated pulsed gradient echo electron spin resonance in a quasi - one-dimensional conductor but of taking on the role of supporting the activities of the Royal Society as a promoter of its work. I would have liked to see us embedding in this legislation the kind of spirit that Sir Paul Callaghan has taken upon himself as an honorary fellow. I am referring to the idea of being a promoter as well as an instigator of other young Kiwis not only becoming members of the Royal Society and potentially future honorary fellows but simply going on to become people like Moana Mackey—the professional members of the Royal Society—those who learn the sciences and stay in the sciences in New Zealand, for the benefit of all of us.

Currently we are losing too many of those potential future honorary fellows. I would like the member in the chair, Grant Robertson, to tell me whether it was ever considered that we include in the legislation the tasks that an honorary fellow might pick up, or the kind of role they might have, because currently this notion of supporting the activities of the Royal Society is rather vague.

I would like to see a greater extension of their role in New Zealand as promoters of science, given, as Sir Paul Callaghan pointed out, the enormous contribution it could make to our future wealth, our income development, and our creation of jobs, not just through things like Labour’s research and development tax credit, which incentivises the private sector to invest in the sciences, thereby creating jobs for our future honorary fellows, but by promoting New Zealand on the world stage, where he is already recognised. The honorary fellows I already listed—David Fergusson, Sally Casswell, Sir Paul Callaghan, James Belich, and Alan Bollard—all have some international recognition.

Again, are honorary fellows meant to support the activities domestically, or, as set out in clause 12, are they intended to stand on the global stage, almost as ambassadors of the Royal Society of New Zealand, demonstrating to the world the huge innovation that we can achieve in New Zealand, despite being a small country? Taking the passion and ability that is demonstrated at primary and secondary schools, putting it on the global stage, and promoting ourselves is, for me, the essence of what I would like to see these honorary fellows doing. At the moment we have very confined clauses, and they do not really express the full potential of the honorary fellow. I would be interested in the views of the member in the chair.

I have been on duty in the Committee stage, and I have been swept up in the spirit of unity. I have to make a speech on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill. I acknowledge the member in the chair, Grant Robertson; I think this wonderful initiative is on his part. I have to acknowledge the Government, because I believe it will support this legislation, and I think that is great.

We on this side of the Chamber understand the importance of research and development, and the celebration of success, to the point where we are going to commit a huge amount of funding for research and development. I am sure that the members and honorary Fellows of the Royal Society will probably appreciate that more than the passage of this legislation. The one thing these people have been battered around by, over the many, many years that they have committed their lives to science, is the uncertainty over funding. So we will commit not just to this legislation and supporting the member, but also to funding to support their work.

I have a couple of questions. One is about the Government having supported and passed much legislation in the House, most of which was bad. But this is a good bill, and the Government is supporting it. I wondered why. I went through the bill, and effectively it includes the humanities. I guess the average New Zealander out there would be asking what the humanities are. If we go to the definition in the bill, we see it includes languages, history, religion, philosophy, law, classics, linguistics, literature, cultural studies, media studies, and art history. If the Government wanted to summarise those things, despite its efforts over the last 2½ years, do members know what it would probably call them? It would call them “nice-to-haves”. That is probably what the Government would call them: “nice-to-haves”. We saw that view when the Government chopped adult and community education and chopped funding for tertiary education courses in this area called the humanities.

The question I have—and I know the member in the chair will struggle to answer it so I will not ask him, in particular, but perhaps a call can be taken by a Government member—is how the Government can rightfully support the inclusion and recognition of humanities alongside mainstream science, yet when it comes to training and encouraging people from the grassroots into courses that are, by this definition, called humanities, the Government says no, they are “nice-to-haves”—they are no good. Well, this legislation, if nothing else, acknowledges those areas deemed to be the humanities as being just as important and right alongside the other traditional areas of science. That is good, and hopefully this might allow the Government to extend its vision through its other economic policies.

The second question I have is one of honorary fellows. The definition was that generally those are people outside of New Zealand, or people who have made a significant impact on New Zealand in many ways. Someone sprang to mind, and I wondered if he has been made an honorary fellow. It is Alan Greenspan, the former US Chairman of the Federal Reserve, who probably had more impact on New Zealand than anyone. The member in the chair shakes his head. Thank God Alan Greenspan has not been made one—that is right.

But the question from here on in is whether with increasing levels of foreign investment and ownership—because that is what the Government wants—people connected to the new foreign owners, or people who may in fact be the new owners, will be entitled to honorary fellowship. I hope not. I hope that the legislation does not open the door for that. The reality is that under the current Government’s policies of increasing levels of foreign investment, control, and influence, one might conclude that an honorary fellowship might be something that we do not support.

I move, That the question be now put.

I would like to take a call on clause 12 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill, because I think the role of honorary fellow is an extraordinarily important one. Before coming to the Chamber I ran though some of the names of current honorary fellows, to take a look at who they are and what they are doing. They are people who have had some sort of an association with New Zealand, and my colleague Jacinda Ardern talked about some of the more notable ones that we are very much aware of. I want to touch on some of these people and what they are doing.

The role of an honorary fellow is stated on the Royal Society’s website, and I just reflect on it. It states: “The Council may from time to time,”—in accordance with academy by-laws—“admit as an Honorary Fellow, any person who is not normally resident in New Zealand, and who, in their opinion, has rendered eminent service to science, technology or the humanities.” I have chosen a selection of these people today. They are people who have some connection to New Zealand, who either have been born in New Zealand and have graduated and gone offshore, or have come to New Zealand and studied and gone away again. They are normally at other universities across the world. This does something that is extraordinarily important. The area and the world of science is globally connected in ways that we could not have imagined many years ago. These fellows give us a connection to many of the universities across the world, and they make the academic life and the international life of the Royal Society that much richer.

I just flicked through and took some people’s names at random, as members can see. One is Martin Banwell, who is a graduate of Victoria University of Wellington. He is now at the Australian National University and is one of the most eminent organic chemists. Richard Bardgett is a professor of ecology at Lancaster University. He is also linked to New Zealand. He was awarded a foundation research project in New Zealand. He has supervised some doctoral theses and he is the leading-edge researcher on linkages between plant and soil communities and how soil organisms and nutrients in the soil go together. These are extraordinarily important, for obvious reasons, to New Zealand and at Lancaster University. These people have strong connections through the Royal Society and through their academic connections back into New Zealand. As I say, these give us the geographic breadth that we need in New Zealand in order to enhance our science through these connections and these relationships across the world.

Sir Patrick Bateson, for example, who has been around for a long time, is a former provost of King’s College, Cambridge. He is currently president of the Zoological Society of London. He was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of London in 1983. His main connection with New Zealand is through his active membership of the scientific board of the National Research Centre for Growth and Development. It is a centre we are particularly proud of and it has already been mentioned in the debate today.

These are all eminent people. Some of them are New Zealanders and some of them are associated with New Zealand. They are connected through the Royal Society to enable us to extend our breadth and give us those connections and linkages to science across the world. It is for that reason, in a sense, that we again look at the Royal Society. This heightens our awareness of the society and the sort of work it does for New Zealand, which we are particularly proud of. Although this debate could go on for the next 5 years in the context of the time we have to debate this bill, what we are doing, and I think it is extremely valuable, is emphasising and advertising the valuable role that the Royal Society plays in New Zealand. The names of the three people I have read out, in no particular order, are the sorts of people whom the Royal Society captures in its net.

I move, That the question be now put.

Thank you, at last, Mr Chair. Along with everyone else I have been dying to get into this debate on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill. I acknowledge all the contributions that have been made by my colleagues. Certainly, there has been nothing from the other side of the Chamber. There have been some excellent examples of skills and talent not only within the society, with the members, the fellows, the companions, etc., but also with the skills and the sheer talent—raw talent in the case of David Shearer—of the speakers who spoke today. I would like to—

💬 Jo Goodhew: Oh!

I know the member in the chair, Grant Robertson, is listening because many members have talked about honorary fellows, but I do have a question and I will ask it.

I am very much a details person, as most people do acknowledge—at the risk of sounding a little big-headed—but I noticed, when I looked at the definition of “Honorary Member” in the principal Act, that the council may from time to time grant honorary membership of the society to any ordinary member who—

💬 Jo Goodhew: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. It does feel to me that we are on the wrong clause. We are talking about “Honorary Fellows”, and this has not been mentioned yet.

Speaking to the point of order, I say that if the member had given me a moment she would have seen that I was making a very valid comparison—

The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson): The member is now debating the issue. Would the member now narrow the debate and come to order.

The point is taken. I will make a comparison, as I was going to do before I was interrupted, between honorary members, which I started to define, and honorary fellows.

The point is that section 16 of the principal Act, headed “Honorary Members”, states that honorary members are not required to pay any levies to the society. I accept that, but what I notice under “Honorary Fellows” is that they are not normally resident in New Zealand. I do hope that the member is listening, because I am coming to the point that is very important. When we look under “Honorary Members” we see that they are not required to pay any levies to the society, but there are no other points. When we look at “Honorary Fellows”, in section 17 of the Act, we see that they are not normally resident in New Zealand, but, as David Shearer has said, they have contributed and they are admitted as an honorary fellow. Like honorary members they are not required to pay any levy to the society, but in addition—and this is the point—they are not entitled to vote in respect of any matters before the academy council or the society, or to hold office in the academy council or the society. That is something different. They are not normally resident, but even if they are resident, whilst they do not pay fees they are not able to participate within the society.

The difference is that the principal Act is silent in terms of honorary members, so does that mean that honorary members are able to participate in respect of any matters before the academy council or the society, or to hold office in the academy council or the society, or is it the case that honorary fellows cannot do that because they are not normally resident? That does not mean they are not New Zealand residents, of course—because they are—but they are not normally resident in New Zealand. I feel quite proud because there are quite a few sharp people on this side of the Chamber but I was the one who pointed it out. I know that the member Grant Robertson is very interested in this and may be able to enlighten the Committee.

The other thing I add is that everybody has acknowledged the movement from being a member or a fellow to honorary status and how significant that is, but what is even more significant is that that will happen to people who are now working in the humanities. So when we acknowledge all the people, who perhaps are New Zealanders working overseas, who have made a tremendous contribution and reached this honorary status, it will also apply to people in the humanities. That will be a tremendous honour, not only for the people who have that honour bestowed on them but also for us as Kiwis. It will be an honour to have people recognised in that way, because often when they are not resident in New Zealand much of what they achieve happens on the world stage. So it is very much an acknowledgment of what is happening there.

I want to respond to the question that has just been asked by Lynne Pillay, and I congratulate her on having an eye for detail and being able to identify the difference between honorary members and honorary fellows, as covered in clause 12. I also want to respond to Jacinda Ardern’s questions about the process by which honorary fellows come to be honorary fellows.

I will take the second point first. Yes, there is a difference here, but although the member has identified the difference—that honorary fellows are not entitled to vote—honorary members absolutely are entitled to vote and be involved. That is because—and this is the important distinction—an honorary member is already an ordinary member before he or she becomes an honorary member. So the distinction here in respect of voting, as stated in section 17(2) of the principal Act, on “any matters before the Academy Council”—soon to be renamed—or the overall council of the society, is that the only people who are involved in that are members. That is the distinction. So honorary fellows are not members and, I would suspect, have not, in most cases, been members of the society.

If for some reason an ordinary member of the society was made an honorary fellow of the society—perhaps a person who had been a scientist in New Zealand and had left and was now working overseas—I presume that he or she would be able to participate in the voting on the basis of their membership rather than on the basis on their honorary fellowship. I congratulate the member on noting that difference, but that is the cause of it. Honorary fellows are in fact not members and therefore are not able to participate.

💬 Jacinda Ardern: Who, new in the humanities, would be included, who is not already included?

Well, we do not know, because we do not know who will be yet, but there will be some.

I think it is important to clarify that and note that that is the distinction in clause 12, “Honorary Fellows”. They do not have the right to vote but they are people who have a connection with New Zealand, and that brings us to the earlier question. I think it will be useful for members if I run very briefly through the process for electing honorary fellows. It is similar to the process for electing fellows. Nominations are given to the fellowship selection panel, and recommendations from there go to the fellowship selection committee. The important point is that consideration is given to each candidate’s sustained research excellence and to his or her association with New Zealand. So it is not just a random scientist from somewhere in the world. When consideration is being given to the question of honorary fellowship, it is not only a question of sustained research excellence—which is the same threshold that normal Fellows of the Royal Society need to meet—but also his or her association with New Zealand. I think that is important, because for the society to be the Royal Society of New Zealand it does mean that the people who are honorary fellows have some association with New Zealand. As I think I said in an earlier intervention, it is highly likely that they have either worked or studied in New Zealand or are engaged in some form of research that actually involves a New Zealand scientist. I think that is a very important point.

Nominations for honorary fellowship remain valid for 2 years, so if someone is not accepted immediately there is a 2-year window in which the Royal Society could choose them, and after that there is a 3-year stand-down period. So if a person is not successful in becoming an honorary fellow in 2 years, they have to wait for 3 years before they can be nominated again, and perhaps in that time they could improve their links with New Zealand or get a more sustained research record. If the fellowship selection committee recommends that a candidate be elected as an honorary fellow, that nomination goes to the academy executive committee, which meets following the fellowship selection committee, and the names of the people who are elected to honorary fellowship are announced at the fellows’ AGM each year.

Anyone who has looked at the website will see that there are not too many honorary fellows. It is kept as a fairly limited pool, just as the overall fellowship of the Royal Society is. I hope that has answered some of the questions that colleagues have raised. It is certainly an important distinction that is being drawn between honorary membership and honorary fellowship, as my colleague Lynne Pillay has raised. I think what we have been through this afternoon and this evening is a good look at the range of membership and the way in which the inclusion of the humanities has changed those categories of membership.

💬 Hon Steve Chadwick: They will.

It certainly will change those categories of membership. With honorary fellows we will now see a pool of internationally respected humanities researchers—

Taloha ni, Mr Chair. I am acutely aware of the time tonight. In reference to an interjection from my colleague Chris Hipkins, it is our understanding that CSI is on tonight. As the Royal Society of New Zealand has been predominantly dominated by scientists up until recently, I am sure they have now switched from TV3 over to channel 93, because they are very interested in this debate.

💬 Chris Hipkins: Well, CSI is not real science anyway.

Yes, well, it is Hollywood meets science. I am sure that they are very interested, none the less. It would be remiss of me not to tell them exactly where we are in the debate on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill. It is my understanding that we are on clause 12, which covers honorary fellows. It amends section 17 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Act “by omitting ‘Academy Council’ in each place where it appears and substituting in each case ‘Academy Executive Committee’.” Subclause (2) amends section 17(1)(b) “by omitting ‘science or technology’ and substituting ‘science, technology, or the humanities’.”

Now that we have got everyone up to date at home as to exactly where we are on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill, I will look at exactly what an honorary fellow is. An honorary fellow is someone who is not normally resident in New Zealand who has given eminent service to science, technology, or the humanities.

I will diverge a little bit to congratulate the Royal Society of New Zealand. Many of us have gone to its website—and I assume the website has been engulfed recently by great interest, especially on Wednesdays. Its website is already, despite this legislation not having been passed yet, referring to the humanities in how it gives out its honorary memberships. It states in relation to companions that a companion is an honour given to a person to recognise “sustained and outstanding leadership and contributions to the promotion, encouragement, and advancement of knowledge in science, technology, and the humanities in New Zealand.” So, despite the fact that this bill has not passed thorough the House, the Royal Society of New Zealand is already acknowledging that the humanities have come into its realm.

I will take the opportunity to look at exactly what the humanities are, because I think that is very important in terms of what will now happen with honorary fellowships—if members could give me one second. The humanities now include languages, history, religion, philosophy, law, classics, linguistics, literature, cultural studies, media studies, art history, film, and drama. Although that is great and I think it is very exciting for the Royal Society of New Zealand to be entering this new arena where it is not focused on just science and innovation, I will concentrate on science and the role that the Royal Society of New Zealand has played in science in New Zealand. In particular, I will make reference to the speech from Jacinda Ardern. She made reference to the New Zealander of the Year, Sir Paul Callaghan. Sir Paul Callaghan is a full fellow, I believe, of—

💬 Jacinda Ardern: He is a full fellow.

He is a full fellow. Thank you very much for confirming that. Sir Paul Callaghan—I can confirm for those at home—is a full Fellow of the Royal Society of New Zealand. [Interruption] No, do not apologise; it has been clarified. As New Zealander of the Year, Sir Paul made what I call a very inspirational presentation to our Labour congress about what he sees as the vision for New Zealand. In terms of that vision, he thinks it is very important that we attract the smartest thinkers from outside of New Zealand into New Zealand. I guess that ties into the fellowships of the Royal Society of New Zealand. The honorary fellows are not usually resident in New Zealand, and we need to attract a lot more of these clever, smart, top-end thinkers, in the opinion of Sir Paul, for our economy to grow in a sustainable way and so we are not relying on our primary production, which has been the history of New Zealand to date.

I will not just concentrate on Sir Paul. Let us take a look at one of those honorary fellows, who is someone we could attract to New Zealand. I think he may have been mentioned by my colleague David Shearer earlier on in this debate; I am not sure if it was on this clause. That person is Martin Banwell, who is at the Australian National University in Canberra. His link to New Zealand is that he is a graduate of Victoria University.

I move, That the question be now put.