Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill

Clause 11 brings us to the question of honorary members, yet another form of membership of the Royal Society. Before I go into that, I will correct something that my very good colleague Moana Mackey said before, because she undersold herself—and it is unlike Moana Mackey to undersell herself. She is a person of—[Interruption]; hear me out—great talent, and someone who should celebrate her achievements. She described herself as an ordinary member of the Royal Society of New Zealand, but, in fact, a brief check of the website of the Royal Society will reveal that Moana Mackey is in fact what is described as a professional member of the Royal Society of New Zealand. That is where a person who joins the Royal Society has their qualifications and professional experience recognised, and the Royal Society—

💬 Chris Hipkins: Where’s that in the Act?

—I will come to that, I say to Mr Hipkins—then undertakes a process. When they assess that a person’s qualifications and professional experience are sufficiently good, they become a professional member and are entitled to have after their name the letters MRSNZ—Member of the Royal Society of New Zealand. So Moana Mackey is more than an ordinary member of the Royal Society, and I think the House should celebrate the fact that she is a professional member.

But clause 11 is not about either ordinary members or professional members; it is about honorary members of the Royal Society. I say to Ms Mackey that we have been celebrating her professional membership of the Royal Society.

💬 Moana Mackey: Oh, am I a professional member?

Yes. It is a surprise to her that she is a professional member. It is something for the member to celebrate tonight.

💬 Moana Mackey: I have to go update my website.

That is right. Section 16 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Act covers who honorary members are, and section 16(1) tells us that “The Council may, from time to time, grant Honorary Membership of the Society to any Ordinary Member who, in the opinion of the Council, has rendered eminent service to science or technology, or to the Society.” Perhaps significantly, subsection (2) tells us that “Honorary Members are not required to pay any levies to the Society.” I think other members may wish to go into that a little more. But that is what describes an honorary member. In clause 11 we are making sure that people who have provided eminent service are not only those who provided that service to science and technology but also to the humanities.

It has been useful to work through the debate tonight on the different types of membership of the society—from fellows through to companions, and now on to honorary members—to recognise that the society has processes in place to enable special recognition of those who are eminent scientists, through the fellows, those who have contributed to the advancement and the knowledge of science, companions, and now those people who have chosen, as Moana Mackey noted before, as any of us could do, to join the Royal Society. If those members who have joined the Royal Society are people who have made a contribution or have been shown to be eminent in some way, then they are able to be described as an honorary member. I think this is an important additional class of membership within the Royal Society, because there are many, many members of the Royal Society, and those who are professional members, like Moana Mackey, and have made their contribution, can, in time, find themselves to be honorary members of the Royal Society. So clause 11 of the bill that is before us tonight—

💬 Hon Dr Wayne Mapp: They’ll be looking to make you one, Grant.

Well, I do wonder, Dr Mapp, after the contribution I have been making to the Royal Society over recent months, whether it might consider honorary membership—I do not know. Far be it from me to put myself forward for that kind of position. Others may choose to, but that is their choice. But it is obviously an important place within the membership structure of the Royal Society to have honorary members and to be able to recognise people within that.

There are some other classes of membership of the Royal Society, including professional members like Moana Mackey. There are also retired members, people who are no longer working within the scientific area, and obviously they have the ability to be recognised, and there are student members. That, I think, is a very important part of the membership class of the Royal Society, because it is a way of bringing people into the Royal Society community at an early stage.

💬 Hon Heather Roy: Is it compulsory?

Compulsory? No, it is not compulsory, I say to Heather Roy, to be a member of the Royal Society. Just briefly, I have to respond to Heather Roy on the nature of student membership of the Royal Society. No, it is not compulsory, and that is fine, because neither is the environment in which the Royal Society operates.

💬 Hon Heather Roy: They don’t need the money.

They do not need the money, did the member say? Well, no, in fact the Royal Society is very keen for people to join, and it is not just about the money, as we established in earlier parts of the debate around the question of members not getting a dividend or a profit. Members join because they are interested in science, and that is a very good thing.

I just want to briefly add to my contribution and say that this is yet another example of the expansion of the membership to include the humanities in the very important category of honorary members, and it is something that I would urge the Committee to support.

It is a pleasure to rise and speak on clause 11 and on the issue of honorary members. I have to say, just by way of a general comment, that this whole debate on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill has been fascinating. Learning about the different categories of membership, I think, is particularly interesting. I am a little disappointed I did not get to speak on clause 10, on companions, because it really—

The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): That’s why I gave you one now.

Yes, thank you for giving me a call now, Mr Chairperson. I do think the companion category is a particularly interesting one. We are talking about people who are outstanding.

In respect of the honorary member category, according to the website of the Royal Society, “The Council may grant Honorary Membership to an Ordinary Member who, in the Council’s opinion, has rendered eminent service to science, technology, humanities or the Society.”

I was looking at the honorary fellow category. Honorary fellows are not normally resident in New Zealand, and I wondered whether the same was true for honorary members, but it does not say so. I hope my colleague Grant Robertson, the fine member who has brought this bill to the House, can clarify this point for me. An honorary fellow is not normally resident in New Zealand, but it does not say that in terms of an honorary member. But I looked at the list of honorary members, and I will just repeat the definition: an honorary member is an “Ordinary Member who, in the Council’s opinion, has rendered eminent service to science, technology, humanities or the Society.” It does not say that honorary members are not normally resident in New Zealand, but as I scrolled down the list, I saw that most of them, if not all, seem to not live in New Zealand, so perhaps Mr Robertson could clarify that for me.

I was going to tell the Committee about the gender breakdown of companions. I think I will still do that, and tell the Committee about the gender breakdown of members. I think it is really important to look at these issues. In terms of companions, there are 35 current Companions of the Royal Society of New Zealand—nine of them are women and 26 are men.

I am afraid that the ratio looks a whole lot worse, though, for honorary members. At the moment there are 56 honorary members of the Royal Society of New Zealand. Of those 56 honorary members, 53 are male and three are female. Those are not particularly good gender statistics. I do not want to be stereotypical, but it may reflect the fact that in the past women perhaps have not been encouraged into the science areas and we probably do have a gap in terms of the number of women who have trained in what we would call the traditional sciences. My colleague Moana Mackey is, of course, a scientist and, as we now know, a professional member of the Royal Society of New Zealand. She is nodding, so I think she is telling me that it is still relatively rare for women to study the traditional science areas and perhaps get to those higher levels. I have certainly seen that for myself when visiting a number of science companies, where one can see a lot of women at the technician level, as Ms Mackey says. One of the things that I am sure the Royal Society is very aware of is the need to encourage more young women into the sciences.

In fact, we need more New Zealanders generally in the sciences. We know there is a gap there, and we know that the sciences are absolutely critical to our economic future, but perhaps Mr Robertson could tell me whether he is aware of any particular efforts being made by the members of the Royal Society to encourage more women into the sciences. In particular I wonder whether the role of companion or fellow is to do just that.

As I say, I am pondering whether honorary members are people based outside of New Zealand; and, if not, what is the specific difference between an honorary member and an ordinary member? It is not quite clear to me from the Royal Society’s website what that distinction is. It just says that honorary membership is granted to an ordinary member for eminent service. We know that at a certain level of eminent service can see one potentially become a companion, so I would like to know what the distinction is between an honorary member and an ordinary member, or, indeed, a professional member like my colleague Moana Mackey.

Clause 11 makes a consequential change to take account of the humanities being included.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak on clause 11 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill. Before I start, because my colleague Moana Mackey has spoken on this issue, I just point out that I do not have any conflict of interest here. I am not an ordinary member, a professional member, a companion, or a Fellow of the Royal Society of New Zealand. But it is good to know that we have a professional member of the Royal Society on this side of the Chamber, and, to take up another point made by Moana Mackey, I can tell the Committee that on a number of occasions it was very useful as a journalist to speak to members of the Royal Society of New Zealand. Sometimes when I was addressing very complex issues of a science nature and wanting to put them into plain English it was usually a member of the science community who was also a member—usually a pretty eminent member—of the Royal Society of New Zealand who helped me out as a journalist.

I am sure that people at home are now tuning into this debate. They would have heard it about because of the great profile it has, and I know that at 7.30 p.m. Close Up, Campbell Live, and Shortland Street finish, so they will be tuning in. We are debating clause 11, “Honorary Members”, which states: “Section 16(1) is amended by omitting ‘science or technology’ and substituting ‘science, technology, or the humanities’.” I just want to see whether we can get closer to the distinction between an honorary member and a companion, which we debated in the previous clause. If I am correct—and I ask the member responsible for the bill about this—the difference is pretty much contained in clause 10(1)(a), which states that a companion has to have “shown outstanding leadership in science, technology, or the humanities;”. Paragraph (b) talks about “eminent or sustained contributions to the promotion”, which is basically what is contained in clause 11. The member in the chair, Grant Robertson, is nodding, so I think that is the level of differentiation between an honorary member and a Companion of the Royal Society of New Zealand.

This is an exciting time for the Royal Society of New Zealand because, as we have spoken about at length on other clauses, the bill brings the humanities into the realm of the Royal Society of New Zealand. I think this will change the nature and the culture of the Royal Society, because we will see a lot more people being given these honorary memberships and companionships of the society. Now that the humanities will come into that I am trying to think of who might become an honorary member or a companion. I am thinking of Pacific Island people of eminence who might be able to become members or companions of the Royal Society. One person who I think would be an excellent such example is Alfred Hunkin. I am getting a nod from the member in charge of the bill. For those people at home who do not know much about Alfred Hunkin, he is the programme director in Samoan studies at Victoria University. [Interruption] Did the member go to school with him?

💬 Dr Rajen Prasad: He’s an ex - school teacher.

He was formerly a school teacher, which is a noble trade. Over the years Alfred, as a composer and musician, has tried to use music to continue the culture of Samoa and to make sure that the language and stories of his homeland are continued. As someone who works in the Samoan studies department at Victoria University he would probably, in terms of clause 11 and the details the council looks at when giving an honorary membership to people, have offered eminent service. He is probably someone who could be given a break with his levies, too. As we look to broaden the nature of the Royal Society of New Zealand, and in particular as we look at honorary membership in clause 11, he is one person who I think would fill the bill in terms of being someone to whom we could extend the distinction of an honorary membership of the Royal Society of New Zealand.

This is a very exciting time for the Royal Society of New Zealand to bring humanities into the fold.

I move, That the question be now put.

Thank you, Mr Chair, I think you will note that this is my first call of the evening and I am pleased to take it on clause 11 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill. Before I begin, I have a couple of questions for the member in charge of the bill, one of which relates specifically to a point that I will come to. I have had some involvement with the Royal Society. I am not a professional member, but as a high school student I was given some assistance to attend the APEC youth science festival in South Korea—

💬 Carol Beaumont: Wow!

—yes, I was. I can see that has left some members impressed. There was a time when I was a reasonable science student—it was some years past. My question is, if I have been a beneficiary of the Royal Society can I become a member? I would also like to know whether Chris Hipkins, given that he is reading the New Scientist at present, could become a member, too.

I have a much more serious question to ask the member in the chair, though. Clause 11 discusses honorary members. It is a very basic amendment to the current descriptor of who is able to become an honorary member. Currently the legislation refers to those who are in the realm of science or technology, but this clause amends section 16(1) by substituting “science or technology” with “science, technology, or the humanities”. The member in the chair, Grant Robertson, has already talked us through the process whereby someone moves through the different levels of membership within the Royal Society. Basically, people can begin with membership, which is for those who work in the applied, biological, earth, engineering, information, medical, physical, and social sciences, mathematics, and the humanities. The distinction between that and the various levels for an honorary member is that it enables a person who has rendered eminent service to the humanities to be granted honorary membership. This level is for those who demonstrate distinction in their field.

I guess my question for the member in the chair is how the addition to this clause is likely to bring in new individuals whom we are not already recognising. I took a little bit of a look through those who already fall under the category of honorary membership, and I thought it might assist members of this Committee if we used that as a basic example of the kinds of eminent individuals who already hold the title of honorary member. Then I have a couple of questions about whether we are likely to delve into new and specific fields. To me, it seems that the humanities are in many ways already acknowledged by the title of honorary member under the current definition, and I ask whether the honorary member title was already a broadening of the powers of the Royal Society beyond what would otherwise be its traditional membership base.

I am interested to hear from the member in the chair whether he can share with us whether the select committee discussed this at any great length—whether it was perceived that perhaps not enough honorary members were recognised in the fields of the humanities and whether, perhaps, a more purist view to those in the humanities needed to be taken. Let me just expand on that with a few examples to assist members of the Committee, whom I can see are greatly intrigued by the contribution I am giving.

💬 Jami-Lee Ross: Yes.

I thank Jami-Lee Ross, who sits to attention. I can tell that he was a good pupil in school. I have to concede, actually, that when I was going through the list of honorary members to assist me with my analysis of this clause, there were a number whose names, I am ashamed to admit, I did not recognise. That is another question I had for the member in the chair: what are the duties of honorary members? What is their expected role, according to the Royal Society? Is it intended that an honorary member should become an advocate on behalf of the Royal Society, or indeed be someone who then takes a public role within his or her field?

When I was scanning through, it struck me that those more traditional members, those who might already be honorary members within the realms of the sciences, were the ones I did not recognise, whereas those who had already been recognised within the humanities were recognisable. That was an interesting distinction for me. For instance, if I mention the name James Belich, I imagine that everyone in this Chamber would know whom I was talking about. He is an outstanding New Zealand historian. He has a specialist field in creating the global relevance of the New Zealand Wars in a historical context. He is recognised for his ability to create intellectual excitement. I am interested to know whether the member in the chair could talk to me a little more—

I will now respond to the questions raised by a number of members, and I thank members for the questions they have raised on clause 11 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill.

💬 Shane Ardern: There’s obviously never any discussion in caucus.

No, no. It is a complete surprise to me, I tell Mr Ardern, to be given questions. But it shows how much the Labour members of Parliament are focused on this bill and have looked at the clauses to understand what they mean. I would be more than happy to take questions from National members when they work their way through the bill—I would be more than happy to do that.

To answer questions about the status of honorary membership, it is necessary to go back and discuss the concept of ordinary membership, because in order to be an honorary member of the Royal Society, one has to be an ordinary member. To be an ordinary member, the rules of the Royal Society, as opposed to the legislation, set out some minimum requirements. This happens once one has joined up and, as Moana Mackey has done, one becomes a professional member.

There are some requirements. One needs training: a university degree or its equivalent, as determined by the Royal Society of New Zealand Council, and/or 3 year’s professional experience within a field designated by the council as being relevant to the society. So, clause 11, effectively, broadens that out to include the humanities, which is now a field designated as being relevant to the Royal Society. Thirdly, one must have a formal adherence to the code of professional standards and ethics. The headings there are “Training”, “Experience”, and “Practice”, and, having established those, or once that has been acknowledged, one gets to put the letters MRSNZ, Member of the Royal Society of New Zealand, after one’s name, as our colleague Moana Mackey is entitled to do.

At that point there is then the question of nomination for honorary members, and those nominations can be made by any member of the society at any time. Nominations for honorary members must be made to the chief executive of the Royal Society, and shall include a statement of not more than 500 words giving reasons why the nominee is worthy of election. Then the Royal Society of New Zealand Council considers each nomination for an honorary member, and, if approval is given, the nominee shall be invited to accept the appointment. At the same time as approval is given, arrangements shall be made for the presentation of a suitably inscribed certificate.

As with Fellows of the Royal Society of New Zealand, and now with members, it is quite clear that I can answer the question that Carol Beaumont raised. I tell her that in fact one does not have to be a resident of New Zealand to take up either of those honorary categories. Obviously, when we come to clause 12 we will see that honorary fellows tend to be people who are based overseas, as well. So, honorary membership and ordinary membership are linked, but they are separate categories. It has clearly been a practice of the Royal Society to recognise people as honorary members who have some connection with New Zealand but who are not in New Zealand. But, obviously, honorary members can be New Zealanders, as well.

I tell the Committee that people can join online, because it has come up in the context of ordinary membership. In fact, there is a button on the Royal Society website that people can click to join. It will cost members of this House $82 for an annual subscription to be a member of the Royal Society. Moana Mackey has to pay more. She has to pay about $150, I think, as a professional member—

💬 Moana Mackey: My membership fees are due.

GRANT ROBERTSON:—and her membership fees are due, so I do hope that she pays them. That is the connection to answer the question raised.

In terms of the questions Jacinda Ardern raised about whether there had been any debate about what bringing the humanities in to the Royal Society would mean in terms of the number of honorary memberships, I tell the member that that was not debated by the select committee. But I know that the approach the Royal Society has taken to the inclusion of the humanities is very inclusive. It is part of the Royal Society’s desire to expand the number of people who are actively involved in the Royal Society. I believe that honorary membership in addition to ordinary membership, companions, and fellows, will expand over time.

The question of gender is very interesting. I know that within the ranks of the Royal Society and within the ranks of the fellows, there are some very active female members, whom I know have been trying to encourage more involvement of women in the sciences. I know that there are some activities within the Royal Society by women fellows to try to encourage other women scientists. But as we have discussed variously throughout this debate, women are underrepresented in the sciences and we obviously want to see more of them there.

I have been a little bemused by clause 11 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill, and I want to ask a few questions of the member in the chair, Grant Robertson, who is acting more and more like a professor every time he speaks on this particular bill.

The point I will make about membership is that I just wonder about one issue when I look at the different types of membership in the Royal Society. A little part of me just asks whether there are too many categories, and, if there are, whether this is the best way to do it. Maybe there is a very good reason for there to be lots of different categories, because the sciences are so diverse and there are many different types of people—does the member have a question?

💬 Jo Goodhew: Which category are we on now?

It is clause 11 that I am talking about.

💬 Jo Goodhew: Oh, you are? I was wondering.

Yes, and it is about honorary members. The member might like to apply to become first a member of the society, then an ordinary member, and then maybe she could become an honorary member. Perhaps the member might like to think about doing that, because I know that Chris Hipkins is thinking about applying for membership in one of these categories, as well.

My question is about how one can find out from the website who is an honorary member. I was surprised by my colleague Moana Mackey; I knew that she was a member, but I did not know that she was a professional member. Unless one knows the little trick that the member in the chair talked about—

💬 David Shearer: He didn’t know, either.

Ha, ha. If one has the membership title next to one’s name, that means something. But certainly when we go to the website and click on ordinary membership, below that there is no list headed “Honorary Members.” So at the moment this is a bit of a mysterious category. Who are they? Where are they? Are they in New Zealand? The member in the chair might want to get that information. I am sure he has it. He has been so well-informed about this bill, about science, and about the Royal Society that I am sure he will have an explanation. It might just be that in order to find out who the honorary members are, one needs to go to the list of members, go through them, and see that some do not have a title next to their name. I cannot recall the title at the moment. Maybe it is them. If that is so, then some clarification by the Royal Society would be really helpful to travellers like me.

There is another point I want to make about this clause. I salute the opportunity for the humanities to have honorary members. I wonder—and the member in the chair might proffer an opinion on this—how long it will take before there are honorary members in the humanities field. Does it happen rather quickly? The humanities are being added now, so there will be a flood of applications, I am sure. How long will it be before someone moves from being an ordinary member to being an honorary member? It is an important signal. It indicates a level of contribution, of eminent service, to science, and in this case to the humanities. There are any number of scientists from the humanities who could qualify for honorary membership immediately. I wonder whether, by adding the humanities in clause 11, it is envisaged that there will be some kind of fast track whereby members from the humanities will be able to avail themselves of this particular membership category.

Of course, this leads me to another rather general point that I would make about membership and the reasons why perhaps not many of our Māori people and our Pacific people are in the various categories. At the moment there are some whom I recognise, but clearly, and as Kris Faafoi said, there are eminent people from the humanities who would qualify. I would expect to see before too long that list increase quite significantly.

The provision in clause 11 is a very good one. It leads me to ask questions in order to clarify who is in this membership category, and I am sure the member in the chair will take a call to explain that. Thank you.

I move, That the question be now put.