Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill

Clause 7 is a long clause. It details the functions of the Royal Society in part by, in many cases, just adding the words “and humanities”. But it means that the work of the Royal Society now increases significantly, because the humanities are a significant addition to what is already going on. Let me give the Committee a couple of examples.

The first would be the management of various awards. The Rutherford Medal, the Pickering Medal, the Thomson Medal, and many other awards are sought and given under the aegis of the Royal Society on an annual basis. These are highly contested awards, and they are prestigious in the world of science. One needs to be a scientist or understand a bit about scientists to understand why the awards are so prestigious. They are often the thing that either drives a scientist or makes a scientist feel well-respected in the eyes of his or her peers. That peer review, that peer acceptance, and that peer acknowledgment is often much, much more important to a scientist than anything to do with money, status, title, or whatever. It is what drives many scientists; it just is. So it is reasonable that the Royal Society should be responsible for managing the allocation of those various medals.

There is another thing the Royal Society does, or at least it does indirectly, and that is manage the Marsden Fund. Actually, there is a council appointed by the Minister of Science and Innovation that manages the Marsden Fund, but the link between the Marsden Fund and the Royal Society is so close that it is best to not bother distinguishing one from the other. The Marsden Fund is a pot of money that everyone says is too small and everyone does not want to get any bigger, or at least not too much bigger too quickly. The reason for that sort of dichotomous approach—it is too little but do not make it too big—is that the Marsden Fund is itself a prestigious fund and a Marsden Award is a prestigious award. People put them on their CVs. If Marsden Awards were freely available, then everyone would be able to put them on their CVs and that would lower the currency a bit.

But there is another reason why the Marsden Fund should not get hugely big. I guess some people are listening to this and saying “Oh, that’s why that guy Hodgson, when he was Minister of Research, Science and Technology, never did make it that much bigger when we wanted him to.” Actually, it went up by 90 percent while I was Minister, but not 190 percent. The success rate is still only about 10 or 12 percent—

💬 David Shearer: Five to 10.

If that is what the member’s notes say, it has dropped away even more. That means that the vast majority of the folk who apply for a Marsden Fund grant do not get one. In a way, we need to remember that because the Marsden Fund is not based on relevance to New Zealand society but only on excellence, that means that an irrelevant topic can be studied so long as the proposal is excellent and so long as the researcher is excellent. That means that every year some journalist says there will be, for example, $300,000 given over to a particular topic—the last one I remember reading was into the study of moth genitals—and we are all supposed to laugh like drains. Chris Hipkins is away already. He has got it. He is going to crack a joke about moth balls before long. Let us see how long it takes him. The point is that that sort of weird and wonderful research enables excellent researchers to follow their dream, not to follow what someone else says is relevant. Out of that sometimes come serendipitous results that are of value, and the Marsden Fund is alive and well with examples of that. But there also come scientists who become committed to a research career, especially scientists who are in their late 20s or early 30s. If they pick up a Marsden Fund grant, they feel as if they have reached a bit of quality and they are often away on their career.

The Royal Society oversees that stuff, and it is really interesting because the Royal Society is itself made up of excellent researchers This could be a den of iniquity. This could be a den of backhanding. This could make FIFA look like something amateurish, but it does not happen.

💬 Hon Members: Ha, ha!

Well, think about it. The only people who are qualified to decide who is an excellent researcher are excellent researchers. If they are not conflicted, they are no good to us. That is the truth of it. I do not think that is funny. That is honestly how I see it. The question is how one maintains the integrity of a situation under those circumstances without the word getting around that someone’s brother-in-law got what he should not have got. All I can say is that that has never come across my desk. I think when the Hon Steve Maharey was Minister for Research, Science and Technology for a couple of years he ran into a bit of that—an allegation that others said had absolutely no substance—but the allegations themselves are rare. So how will very clever people decide which of those very clever people or other very clever people will get a bunch of money, because they do, without it becoming an issue of conflict of interest?

One other thing is that the Marsden Fund has for years supported humanities. It might have decided to fund research into moth balls, but it will also fund research, if it wants to, into ancient Icelandic. The only criterion is one of excellence. So for years, long before this Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill came into the hands of Grant Robertson and long before it came before the House, the humanities part of the Royal Society’s function has been, in a way, manifest through its very close neighbour, the Marsden Fund and that funding process. The Royal Society is generally responsible for housing the Marsden Council—you know, the tea and the coffee. Generally, it is responsible for putting up the names to the Minister of the day as to who should go on this or that committee. It just circulates them around.

All the while that I can remember being a Minister, there were some monies there for humanities, so there is a bit of a track record of money coming from Vote Science and ending up in the hands of humanities researchers. Humanities scholars would say “not enough”—they would say serially and seriously not enough—but that does not alter the fact that we have been doing this a little bit for some time. It may now mean that the emphasis on the Marsden Fund distribution heads a little more towards humanities. I do not want to dictate that to the folk who will be appointed to that body, or offer any advice to any present or future Minister; I am just saying that it seems possible. So those are a couple of the functions of the Royal Society. There are many other functions listed. They are listed in the legislation and I am sure that other colleagues will want to explore them.

I say in conclusion that in respect of the Government’s interaction with the Royal Society, 20 years ago when Simon Upton was looking at what to do with the Royal Society, and trying to work out how to carve out its niche, which he finally did in the legislation called the Royal Society of New Zealand Act 1997, way back then it was unclear what its role would be. Since that time it has developed a series of roles including advisory roles to the Government, which I am sure other members will speak about. That means we cannot easily do without those functions—and not only do we want them; we now need them. That, I think, is something that needs to be said in the Royal Society’s favour. For those who think the society is a bunch of people who are fuddy-duddy and sandal wearing, that is no longer the truth and has not been the truth for at least the time I have been in Parliament.

Kia ora, Mr Chairperson. Ngā mihi nui ki a koutou. Thank you very much for the opportunity to support my colleague Grant Robertson’s Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill. At this point in the debate we are focusing on clause 7, and the aspect of clause 7 that I will be talking about also relates to new section 5, inserted by clause 6, which states: “The object of the Society is the advancement and promotion in New Zealand of science, technology, and the humanities.” Of course, all of those are underpinned by research or evidence-based action.

I acknowledge the Hon Pete Hodgson, who was the Minister of Research, Science and Technology when I was Māori research manager at the Health Research Council. The research, science, and technology sector has been, historically for me, one that I have known quite a bit about. Obviously I know quite a bit about what the Hon Pete Hodgson was talking about in terms of conflict of interest, but also in terms of scientists themselves being able to select and be involved in processes of allocating our public-good science, research, and technology money.

What I really want to focus on is the definition of humanities that we have in this amendment bill. The definition includes languages—and I hope there is an opportunity to ensure that our indigenous languages are part of that definition—as well as history, religion, philosophy, law, classics, linguistics, literature, cultural studies, media studies, art history, film, and drama. It was very interesting for me to look at the definition of humanities that I could find on the internet, as one does. For me it is very much an academic discipline that is about studying the human condition using disciplines that are analytical, critical, and speculative.

What does this bill mean for me in terms of humanities outputs in the future? I think it is very exciting, and I just highlight the fact that the Royal Society, having been around since 1867, has mirrored situations that many countries across the world, and many leading academies, such as those in Scotland and Canada, have followed in ensuring that the humanities are integrated into the work of the Royal Society. It is very exciting that the breadth of the Royal Society now includes the humanities.

Let us look at some of the historical work that the Royal Society has been involved with, and I particularly highlight Dr Steve Thompson, who was involved with the Royal Society when I was working at the Health Research Council. I will also look at some of the evidence that the society has come out with in respect of the humanities and decided to share with the New Zealand public. For example, the Royal Society signed a petition in favour of genetic modification testing in 2008. It was really interesting to note that a report was released by the energy panel of the Royal Society of New Zealand in 2006 recommending that the Government set aggressive but achievable targets for renewable transport fuels, that it phase out the use of fossil fuels unless carbon emissions could be contained, and that it put in place policies to ensure that fossil fuel - free targets are met by 2020.

As we can see, the Royal Society has historically engaged in the pursuit of the humanities, but I guess that with this formal mandate there will now be a greater opportunity for our humanities leaders and academics to apply to the Royal Society. Also of note in 2006 was the comment by chief executive Steve Thompson that the Government’s research and development investment of about 0.52 percent of GDP was well below its goal of reaching the OECD average, then 0.68 percent and rising. He said that scientists were chasing a moving target, and the gap was getting bigger. It will be very interesting to monitor in the future what this definition will mean to the Royal Society. I commend my colleague Grant Robertson for prioritising this member’s bill.

As Gareth Hughes said earlier in the debate, we are having an extremely good discussion on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill, one that is perhaps on a slightly higher plane than the debates on most of the legislation that comes through the House.

Three words of clause 7 run right through the various parts of the clause, and those words are “science”, “technology”, and “humanities”. Pete Hodgson touched on and answered the questions of some of the other members who had asked about research. We have a Ministry of Research, Science and Technology and a Foundation for Research, Science and Technology, and now we have a Ministry of Science and Innovation. The word “research” has been removed from the title of that ministry. As Pete Hodgson quite rightly argued, it has been taken out because research is an inherent part of science; we cannot have science unless we have research. We can discuss the types of scientific research we can have, but nevertheless research is part of science. The really interesting point is that the word “humanities” has been brought into the three words I mentioned.

I will make a couple of points, and first I will again go back to what Pete Hodgson was talking about in terms of the Marsden Fund. In some ways the Marsden Fund, which is to recognise and reward excellence in New Zealand, has for some time provided awards in both the science and the humanities areas. There has been no problem in terms of that happening. In many ways, what we are trying to do with this legislation is bring the humanities into the Royal Society.

Mr Hodgson mentioned in his contribution that the Marsden Fund is for excellence, regardless of what end the research might be put towards in the future, and of what it might be able to produce. It is about the best research that can possibly be done, and we can have extreme examples of that. It is something that is held up as being about the best science in New Zealand.

My only issue with the Marsden Fund—and I will diverge on this for just a short period of time—is that often the work is done and we already have the conclusions before we can actually put forward an application for the Marsden Fund. So in a sense the 2 years’ funding from the Marsden Fund in many ways is confirming what we have already found out. In a sense the Marsden Fund does not do exactly what we would like it to do, which is to take forward an area of science at the most excellent level. Often, in order to get the Marsden Fund, applicants must already know almost the conclusions of their research.

The other thing I will point out about the fund is that only 5 percent of the applications are rewarded in this regard. Just about everybody whom I have spoken to has said it could easily be 10 percent. Making that cut-off point between 5 percent and 10 percent, or even 15 percent, is extraordinarily difficult. Would it not be great if we in New Zealand had more money to provide that extra 5 percent or 10 percent to those other researchers who are there and who are just as excellent but who perhaps, for whatever reason, have not been chosen?

I come back to the key point I started with. The key point is that the humanities have been part of the Marsden Fund, which has been seen as the highest point of endeavour in our scientific community amongst the universities, Crown research institutes, etc. In doing that there has been no problem about dumbing down science or making science less relevant, but it has in fact been holding up the humanities and science together. That is a very important point.

The other thing I will say is that about nine or maybe 10 out of the 13 submissions made on this bill on the humanities—I do not have the exact figure—were against bringing the humanities into the Royal Society. It seemed to me that many of those branches believed and felt that bringing in the humanities would undermine the tenets of the Royal Society and what the Royal Society stood for—that is, excellence in science. In fact, the more I look at this, the more I think that what will happen is that it will be the other way round. It is the humanities that need to worry about what will happen by bringing the humanities into an august scientific organisation like the Royal Society, and the humanities will perhaps face the greater risk of being submerged by broader science within the society.

I think the movement forward is a healthy one on both sides. Both sides, both the pure scientists and those who are involved in the humanities—again, as Pete Hodgson pointed out to my colleague Dr Rajen Prasad, this involves the social sciences, as well—will have to work together for the benefit of excellence and for the benefit of New Zealand. No one side will be threatened, as many of the submissioners seemed to suggest when they came before the select committee.

As has been pointed out, the movement forward of bringing in the humanities and of looking at science, technology, and the humanities covers that broad range of endeavours that we believe belong together. As other speakers have said, in this much more complex world, where we are looking at global warming and at some of the other areas that we are trying to apply science to, there is a natural fit. They naturally fit together, and we need to have that broad conversation across the whole of the Royal Society.

I will make just one comment about something that Gareth Hughes mentioned before about the Royal Society and about why it is called the Royal Society. He mentioned the fact that he is an avid republican—as am I, I say to Mr Hughes. There is an element of the Royal Society being traditional. This organisation was first established in 1867. Therefore, the word “Royal” in those years perhaps had a much more relevant connotation than it does today. But I still believe that we can be cognisant and respectful of the history of this organisation by maintaining its title, the “Royal Society of New Zealand”. I would hate to see it being called the “Republican Society of Science”. I do not think that has quite the same ring to it as the “Royal Society”. Therefore, I believe that the Royal Society and what it stands for—and, in particular, where it is going—is what clause 7 really establishes in its six subclauses, which is to bring the humanities into the Royal Society.

I will particularly point out that proposed new section 6(e), which is to be substituted in the Royal Society of New Zealand Act by clause 7 of the bill, states that the Royal Society’s function is “to provide expert advice on important public issues to the Government and the community:”. That can involve pure science, but by definition of what it is anticipating doing, it must bring in society and the way society works, as well. That means that it is to incorporate what we have been talking about, which is bringing in the humanities.

In conclusion, I say that I believe that the Royal Society is taking the right track in bringing in the humanities. I think that the three words that pervade clause 7 of this legislation—“science”, “technology”, and “humanities”—are reflective of where we want to see the Royal Society going in the future.

I move, That the question be now put.

It is a great pleasure to rise to speak again on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill—my first time this evening—and I am speaking on clause 7, which substitutes a new section 6, “Functions”, into the Royal Society of New Zealand Act. Clearly, new section 6, “Functions”, is almost the “how to”. So how will the Royal Society advance and promote these matters? The obvious change has been that instead of just science and technology, the humanities have now been included. The functions are quite broad-ranging, and if members look at them as outlined in clause 7, they will see that all the way through we now have the addition of the humanities.

Many of my colleagues have, I think, eloquently explained why it is so important that we include the humanities, and throughout the functions listed in section 6(a) to (f), the humanities are now included. Part of those functions, as stated in paragraph (a), is “to foster in the New Zealand community a culture that supports science, technology, and the humanities,”. I think that is very important for a whole range of reasons.

The pursuit of knowledge for the end goal, if you like, of acquiring that knowledge and then using it, and the processes by which one acquires knowledge, are very, very important. It is, in some ways, what goes to heart of us being human—the way that we learn and the way that we use what we learn. Clause 7 looks at how the society will promote or “foster in the New Zealand community a culture that supports science, technology, and the humanities,”. That will be done by promoting public awareness and through the advancement of education.

It is interesting to look at section 6(a)(ii), in clause 7, because it talks about the advancement of “science and technology education:”, as opposed to science, humanities, and technology education. I wonder whether that is deliberate. Perhaps my colleague Grant Robertson, the fine member sponsoring this bill, could explain to me why the humanities are left out of that particular subparagraph.

Importantly, in the functions there is the issue of excellence. I think that excellence and promoting excellence in everything we do, including science, technology, and the humanities, is important. New section 6, in clause 7, looks at other things, such as providing infrastructure and support for the professional needs of scholars who are part of the Royal Society, and, importantly, it looks at establishing a code of professional standards and ethics.

I am interested in paragraph (e) of new section 6, which states: “to provide expert advice on important public issues to the Government and the community:”. I am unclear as to how frequently the Royal Society would fulfil that role. Perhaps my colleague Grant Robertson might stand and explain to me, as probably our foremost expert on the Royal Society, how frequently it does provide expert advice on important public issues to the Government and the community. That will certainly be strengthened by the addition of the humanities.

Paragraph (f) is very interesting, because in it the council of the Royal Society is given the opportunity to do “all other lawful things …”. I put my mind to what that might look like and whether it would change with the addition of the humanities in those functions. Would the all other lawful things look somewhat different? I wondered whether that could include specifically the promotion of what is called by some people “integrative education”. A number of speakers tonight have stood up and made a very compelling case that the distinctions are somewhat arbitrary between science, the humanities, and technology and that there are many subject areas where, in fact, all three components are at play at once.

There is, I think, an important role for the promotion of integrative education and understanding. Michael Roth, the president of Wesleyan University in Connecticut is a strong advocate for integrative education that mixes science and the arts. He uses the example of neuroscience and behaviour as one of its fastest-growing majors, which links those things. He talked about it as a kind of intellectual cross-training, which I thought was a very striking description.

So I think that with the addition of the humanities it may be that these functions should specifically include a point of promoting integrative education. Again, perhaps my colleague Grant Robertson might be able to explain whether any consideration was given by the Royal Society or the select committee to this idea.

I am delighted to take a call on clause 7 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill. I commend the Royal Society of New Zealand for putting up this bill. [Interruption] And for putting up with this debate! It put up this bill, which is very important for us to consider in Parliament. I like the functions of new section 6, which is inserted by clause 7, about the integration and promotion of science, technology, and the humanities.

I did a little bit of research—along with my colleagues, I am sure—into what we have historically funded in science. I hear that my colleague who was previously in the chair, Pete Hodgson, was very interested in the science of the moth. I am sure that would be appropriate coming from Pete Hodgson. I have looked at funding that is related to the arts, which is part of my field as the spokesperson on arts, culture, and heritage.

It is particularly interesting that some funding is now being distributed and made available for researchers who look at the computer games industry. When we look at the digital platform and arts, we need to be guided by some of the potential economic opportunities, if they are well researched, for the computer games industry and the country. At the moment it is a section of the creative industries that is not funded by, and cannot make applications to, Vote Arts, Culture and Heritage. Yet I think those funding applications that come before the film industry and the Film Commission may be better looked upon if research accompanied them. I am really pleased about the animation diploma course here in Wellington that Tony St George is running. He says that it is a pretty tough course and he puts students rigorously through it. They look at the impact of gaming and the gaming industry. I think that that research is certainly needed. It relates a little to a portfolio interest I have.

Another interest, much closer to home—and I think we are finding this at the moment with uncertainty in the environment—is the pure science on volcanic eruptions. Much more research is needed. I went up to look at the lahar on Tongariro. I was amazed. I looked at the need for research about when there may be another big blow in the country and also how we could predict super-eruptions into the future. That scientific research is absolutely critical. It guides us as to whether, in a big blow, we would break into the lahar crust to let it flow down the mountain, and potentially take out a motorway, or leave the crust and let nature take its course. It is absolutely imperative for the Minister of Conservation, the Minister of Transport, and the Minister of Local Government to be informed of that research and science. It is great to see science supporting us with the big decisions we make in Government.

We are also seeing some science go into other important decisions made by this Government. One example is research about the unconscious mind of the violent criminal. This issue hardly fits with the humanities, but when we look at restorative justice and law and order we must not make decisions without being informed by good research and good science. This is exactly the sort of information that Ministers and legislators will get to decide where they will take policy in the future. I was particularly interested in Victoria University funding, which came from the Marsden Fund, administered by the Royal Society, for a forensic psychologist to look at the unconscious mind of a violent criminal. What a great slice of research that funding has promulgated; it got a response from Government.

I will take a call on clause 7 of the Royal Society Amendment Bill, which I have not done so far. I will respond to the questions that my colleague Carol Beaumont asked me—

💬 Hon Rodney Hide: What questions?

GRANT ROBERTSON:—and any other interjections that Mr Hide or Mr Williamson might have. I am happy to respond to those, as well.

Carol Beaumont raised in relation to new section 6(a)(ii), inserted by clause 7, that this currently states only: “the advancement of science and technology education:”. To look back at the historical roles of the Royal Society in science and technology education gives us a clue as to why the humanities is not included in that subparagraph. That relates to the Royal Society’s role in helping to set the science curriculum, which is a role that it has traditionally played. It is not one that would have been associated, I suspect, with the Council for the Humanities, which has previously guided that particular area. The other area will be a historical, and even more recent, requirement for more science and technology teachers. Obviously that is an area where we have had a significant shortage as well.

I can see that some colleagues—Dr Prasad, for instance, who is a passionate defender of the social sciences and the humanities—look at this subparagraph and wonder why the change has not been made to include the word “humanities”. I was not on the Education and Science Committee so I am not aware that it was raised. But I believe it relates to the Royal Society’s role in developing the science curriculum, which the Council for the Humanities has not had. I do not think that Dr Prasad should be too upset about this new subparagraph. When we look at the overall functions that are now within this new section we see that it gives the humanities the role alongside science and technology. The particular new subparagraph notwithstanding, when we look at the total of this new section we see that the humanities are right up there beside science and technology.

The comments I specifically wanted to make on these functions note something. The bill does not add just the word “humanities”. The bill repeals the whole of section 6 in the Act and substitutes a new section 6. So this is an opportunity to reflect on whether we think these are the functions we believe the Royal Society should have. So although it is a conversation about the inclusion of humanities, we are not doing just that; we are actually as a Committee repealing a whole section of the Act and replacing it with a new section. This is the opportunity to assess whether these are, in fact, the functions that the Royal Society should have.

I will focus on two of those functions. One is in new section 6(b), which states “to encourage, promote, and recognise excellence in science, technology, and the humanities:”. I believe that the Royal Society is now doing this more and more. A quick look at the Royal Society’s website would tell members that the range of awards, prizes, and medals now given out by the Royal Society is vast. We have the Charles Fleming Award for Environmental Achievement, the Cooper Medal for physics and engineering, the CREST Awards for creative and innovative science, the Dame Joan Metge Medal for social science research, and now a new award to be given out for the first time this year: the Humanities Aronui Award.

The humanities, as we have noted previously in this debate, are already functioning within the Royal Society. Our job here is simply to give the final legislative tick-off to that; the actual work is ongoing. So there is now a humanities award in there. The award that people will perhaps know the most about is the Rutherford Medal. I hope members know about it; if they do not, I am happy to enlighten them. The Rutherford Medal recognises excellence in science. When we look down the history of the people who have received the Rutherford Medal, we see that it really is a tribute to the scientists of New Zealand. Members of this Committee will be quite familiar with them: the likes of Paul Callaghan; Alan MacDiarmid, obviously; and Peter Gluckman. Peter Gluckman is now the Prime Minister’s Chief Science Advisor; some years ago he won the Rutherford Medal. To me, his latest publication is an exact example of why the bringing together of the humanities and the sciences under this bill is so important.

Peter Gluckman’s topic, I guess, was adolescent morbidity, but when we talk about what adolescent morbidity is, we see that it is a combination of physical health—the things that people need to enable them to, as Sir Peter says, survive adolescence—and also the whole way in which we support people to achieve their potential in whatever field they are interested in. That involves moving into areas like psychology; it also goes into areas of social development and social science. They are important areas. The Rutherford Medal is an important example of a high-quality excellence award. Sir Peter Gluckman is now showing us that the kind of work he is doing takes on issues of physical science and brings in social sciences and the humanities in a very, very important report that we hope the Government takes notice of. Paragraph (b) is important. We are re-putting these paragraphs and we are re-establishing the functions of the Royal Society; we should be very proud.

The other function I will particularly highlight, and it has been mentioned by a couple of colleagues, is the question of expert advice on important issues to the Government and the community. The Royal Society needs to be congratulated, because across New Zealand branches of the Royal Society play the role in their communities of highlighting issues that it is important the public be able to debate. I know that during the debate on genetic modification, when the royal commission was meeting and then in the wake of the royal commission’s report, we saw the Royal Society playing an important role. I happen to know that when the Local Government and Environment Committee did its inquiry into matters surrounding the possible accidental release of genetically modified organisms into New Zealand—[Interruption] Yes, it was indeed; that is quite some memory for Mr Hodgson. It took in the Royal Society’s advice. In fact, there was one fascinating occasion when two scientists assessed the information that was related to the so-called “corngate” situation and came up with quite different conclusions. They were both fellows of the Royal Society and they were both brought in by the select committee. To me that is the essence of the role that the Royal Society can play. We will be able to say that science is not an absolute thing but we will bring together the best minds in the country to advise, in this case, a parliamentary select committee. Frankly, with due respect, the then members of the Local Government and Environment Committee were probably not able to bring that advice to the table themselves. That kind of community and parliamentary advice role is very important and I am very pleased that we are restating that particular function tonight.

I also mention just a couple of other things. The Marie Curie Lecture Series is a year-long tour of talks by female New Zealand chemists in honour of Curie’s Nobel Prize in chemistry. Here is an example of both supporting scientists and acknowledging the role of women in science. Were Moana Mackey—I am not allowed to mention the absence of members. But Moana Mackey has contributed significantly to this debate, and I know that she is very keen on encouraging the role of women in science. It has often been seen as a male-dominated profession, so that lecture series is a good example of the way in which the Royal Society fulfils the function within this section.

The point I am really trying to make here is that there are important roles within this section and we should not gloss over them too quickly, because they are the essence of why we have the Royal Society. We as a Committee are being asked tonight whether we want to put those objects and those functions back into place; we are making that judgment. I think those objects and functions have served the Royal Society extremely well. They have been altered at times over the years, and earlier in this debate we talked about the different Acts that have been put in place. The most recent one was the 1997 Act, which brought the social sciences to more prominence within the legislation. That is what these particular sections do.

I also note that there is always the “get out of jail” function, which is the final paragraph: “to do all other lawful things that the Council considers conducive to the advancement and promotion in New Zealand of science, technology, and the humanities.” That is the paragraph that people familiar with constitutions will recognise. I do not know why, but students associations come to mind on this particular evening. There is always one of these clauses in the constitutions of incorporated societies. There is a clause that allows the organisation to perform things that are within its remit but perhaps have not been considered within the exact language above. Again, that could assure Dr Prasad that the humanities are not being left out, in that particular paragraph.

I wanted to make those comments. I had not spoken on this particular clause, which is one of the most significant clauses of the bill. It is the restatement of the very things that we expect the Royal Society to do, and it is important that we are taking some time to work through them. They are, in a sense, listed in order of importance, from the overall role of fostering the culture of supporting science, technology, and the humanities, all the way through to the “get out of jail” function. They are all important, and I am very pleased that we are able to re-include them in our legislative framework.

I move, That the question be now put.

I thank the member in the chair, the member for Wellington Central, for inviting us to reflect on clause 7 as a whole, and to reflect on the fact that there, for the first time, we are being invited to think about the inclusion of the humanities alongside everything else. I appreciate the member in the chair reminding us that we are not just bolting something else on to an existing structure; it actually means something quite different. I will take up his invitation to reflect on the functions of the Royal Society in that particular light. I mention in passing that it is good to hear the members in the chair beginning to sound like professors—“Professor Robertson”. I thought “Professor Hodgson” did a sterling job even though I did not agree with all of his explanations, particularly those about social sciences and the humanities.

It is important to look at the functions of the Royal Society and contemplate what the humanities will get out of entering this pool of scientists as a whole, through the Royal Society, and achieving that kind of elevation, which I want to reflect on. All interests are elevated: the interests of science and technology as well as those of the humanities. All boats are lifted by the way in which the member in the chair has encouraged us to think about the functions of the society.

Look at new section 6(a): “to foster in the New Zealand community a culture that supports science, technology, and the humanities,”. I think section 6(a)(i) adds to the bill something very important, which is “the promotion of public awareness”. I can sincerely say that, as a social scientist, an academic at a university, and a person belonging to a profession that calls on the humanities to develop its own graduates, at times the level of public awareness of what the humanities can contribute to any profession one cares to name is often missing. We went around recruiting students in their last year of high school to go to university, and we encouraged them, in addition to the specialities they wanted to develop, to build into their degrees those subjects and disciplines that would help them to think, to develop their minds, to think about our society, and to think about those disciplines and subjects that take us somewhere we do not normally go. That is what the humanities do. This function of promoting public awareness of what now also includes the humanities, if looked at it in a composite kind of way—and this is a sincere comment—is quite amazing. Promoting public awareness is already included in the way the American academic system thinks about the role of a university. It makes it possible for everybody to have a broad social science or liberal arts education that includes the humanities, so that graduates grow up with the ability to think for themselves and articulate their points of view.

However, with respect, I do disagree with the member in the chair. I rather suspect that new section 6(a)(ii) actually includes a typographical error. I would like to receive another explanation the next time a different “professor” is in the chair about why the humanities are not included in it. I sincerely believe that is an omission. If we read the provision, we see that it states: “(a) to foster in the New Zealand community a culture that supports science, technology, and the humanities, including (without limitation)—”. Subparagraph (i) includes the humanities, but subparagraph (ii) states “the advancement of science and technology education:”. That almost assumes that the humanities require no educational preparation. In fact, they do. Think about ethics and philosophy; there is a huge amount there that really does touch this particular function. I invite the Royal Society, through the member, to come back with another explanation, or maybe members of the Education and Science Committee will have one. Of course, as other members have already talked about, the other functions of the Royal Society now include the humanities.

Other members have talked about recognising excellence. Those who are functioning at the highest level in any discipline always look to see which courts they need to be part of so that their discipline is seen as standing alongside any other science and technology discipline. When we recognise excellence we actually recognise our high achievers, and a function of the Royal Society is to recognise high achievers in the humanities alongside everybody else. This is not about a pecking order; that is now long gone. This addition might be the final piece of the jigsaw. It actually says that when we recognise excellence, no one discipline plays second fiddle. The provision is there, right at the beginning; new section 6(b) has that very, very important function.

I am talking about what the humanities will get out of being included in the Royal Society in the way that this bill includes them. The benefits are embedded in its functions, and we can talk about them. In new section 6(c), the Royal Society will have a role in providing “infrastructure and other support for the professional needs and development of … humanities scholars:”. So there we are. That is an investment in the humanities of the future. The humanities will take any profession to new heights by building alongside the basic knowledge of that particular discipline something else that is not ordinarily available to particular scientists. Here we are providing an infrastructure to do that. To support the professional needs of those who are humanities scholars really is an investment. That investment is made in that particular way by the Royal Society, and it is something that I am particularly pleased to see.

Then there is that little question that needs to be asked of any profession or discipline that actually adds to the advancement of our society: how will it function, and what are the rules that will guide it? Here the Royal Society is saying to the humanities that they also have ethical requirements to meet. A function of the Royal Society is to administer for members a code of professional standards and ethics. The humanities are now beholden to that code, as well, in addition to any code of their own they might have. A set of principles, a code of professional standards, is embedded in the functions of the Royal Society that the humanities will now have to meet.

💬 Hon Christopher Finlayson: A hopeless lightweight.

I ask the member to take a call and explain to us his view about the inclusion of the humanities in the social sciences, as a jurist and a lawyer. I am sure that that particular profession could learn a lot, as well, from the humanities—including an ability to stop, think, and add. I know that that member is very capable of doing that, rather than taking cheap shots.

Another cornerstone of the Royal Society is now available to the humanities, and I am particularly pleased to see it.

The other aspect of the role of the Royal Society is its contribution in bringing expertise together in some kind of composite way to be made available to our society for the advancement of our society. Therefore it is a day of celebration for me personally, from my background, to know that the humanities will stand alongside each of those other disciplines—the sciences, technology, etc. We know that they will have the space to make that kind of contribution. I am pleased that I have been able to take this call today to explain that fact from my and my students’ point of view. Thank you.

I will take a pretty short call, but I was on the Education and Science Committee and had the privilege of hearing a number of the submitters. They were really fascinating people, and the hearing was very different from hearings on other bills that I have participated in. There was a fierce eccentricity about the submitters that I found really interesting. I think that it was the science community debating the issue of humanities that made it such a fascinating experience.

In terms of clause 7 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill, even the issue of the functions of the society was controversial. It was very difficult to find out from the various submitters what they thought the society was, and their idea of who was included and who was not. I had an overwhelming desire to get out a whiteboard and do a flow chart, because it was really difficult to understand how the members, the branches, and the governing body defined themselves. I think that other parts of the bill are controversial, and we will talk about that, but even in talking about functions these people confused the select committee, and vigorously debated—passionately debated—who the society was, before we even got to the question of the function. Maybe the nature of academia and intellectual life is that every single word will be debated—a bit like parliamentarians do, only the scientists were more interesting than we are, somehow.

I will just look at the functions of the society, in terms of what came up at the select committee. It was a bit of a concern at the select committee—although the Greens support the bill—that there was such a dispute about whether consultation on these issues had been thoroughly carried out. Part of that was because nobody could really understand how the process worked—no one could really work out who was supposed to consult with whom on the functions of the Royal Society. So it was difficult for us to make an intelligent assessment of whether that had happened in a fair way. Of course, the leading people submitting on behalf of the society’s governing body said it had been a fantastically rigorous consultation, although some of the submitters on this issue said that it had not been. It was really difficult to know the truth. In the end we went back to the bill and the principles in it, and that is why we supported it.

If we look at clause 7, in terms of new section 6(a)(ii) “the advancement of science and technology education:”, we see the omission of the word “humanities”. That is an issue, but if we are talking about schools and the curriculum in primary schools, I think we have to be even more concerned that since the introduction of national standards there has been a deliberate attack on the idea that science is actually a crucial part of the curriculum. I have had science teachers who might want to be guided by the Royal Society and have its input into the curriculum telling me they are losing professional development, and they are losing opportunities to teach the curriculum in primary school, because there is only literacy and numeracy. There is a narrow and very, very limited way of looking at what learning is.

On the one hand we have the Royal Society promoting the advancement of science, technology, and the humanities; on the other hand we have the Government saying that at primary school level science is not important. It seems to be conceptually beyond its grasp that young people will come to literacy and numeracy via science, via the arts, via the humanities, and via a whole range of learnings. If the Government understood how education actually works—and clearly the Royal Society does, because it is making this change—it would understand that people come to a basic understanding about literacy and numeracy through their passion for a particular discipline. Many children will come to literacy through science, and through their absolute wonder and passion for how the physics of the world works, rather than from actually doing maths on the board. It would be terrible if the capacity of the Royal Society to advise on the curriculum for science and technology was not applied in primary schools, and it is a real concern that these are being narrowed and the whole area has been shut out.

In terms of new section 6(a)(i) I am fascinated by the debate about science and technology versus the humanities, because originally the science community and the Royal Society in Europe had a very elitist view of what was knowledge. It was a very patriarchal view of what was knowledge, it was a very materially defined view of what was knowledge, and it did not include the view that the essence of all knowledge is holism, that knowledge is about the connections between disciplines, and that a true knowledge of science requires an ability to understand what it is to be human.

I would like to continue a little further on my dissertation on this, because I am interested in the idea of humanity and science being connected and I am encouraged by this. I also would like to say that, as someone touched on earlier, the Rutherford Medal is part of recognising excellence. Tonight I was privileged to hear one of the medallists, Paul Callaghan, talking. He was talking about that very connection between science, entrepreneurship, and humanity in this country. His bottom line was that this must be a place where talented people would want to live. He is repeating this around the place, and it is interesting when a Royal Society medallist talks like this because it actually manifests what this change in the law is all about: that we need a society that will attract the best minds, hold the best minds, and create the best business and scientific ideas. It must also have the capacity to maintain human relationships and human values, including environmental values. He was very lucid on that subject. I think that is a good example of the Rutherford Medal, and why we need to encourage and promote excellence. People like Paul Callaghan get those medals because of that absolutely deep and articulate capacity to make connections. That is what makes other people come with them when they are trying to promote science, or business, or an understanding of how society works. So it is good to see that in the bill.

One of the other issues, which I think Grant Robertson has already touched upon, is the issue of expert advice on public issues. I lived for many years on the East Coast, in Tai Rāwhiti, and even there members of the Royal Society and people working for the Royal Society were active on issues that affected our community, mainly in terms of environmental science. But for those of us who did not know anything about the Royal Society, it was heartening to see its members play a role in issues like GE and issues like water quality not only on the national stage but also on the local stage. In the long debates that we had over things like sewerage and water quality, our community benefited from having people connected to the Royal Society participate and provide expert advice on important public issues. There is a real need in the public domain for debate around science and technology issues and around humanities issues to have some expert advice and to ensure our citizens actually know what they are talking about because that debate is accessible—and the Royal Society has shown its ability to be accessible.

I would have liked to be here for the entire process of the Royal Society bill. I thought it was really interesting being at the Education and Science Committee. I would have liked to be at more of its deliberation, although my primary responsibility is education and I believe that David Clendon was there for most of the Royal Society bill. But I will not forget those people and their passion. I think we owe them a debt as a society because they provide us with both understanding and public awareness of not only science and technology but also the humanities. As a former social science teacher myself, I do not see a separation between these things. As a person committed to environmental issues, I cannot see a separation between human values and the environment and the science that informs them. I commend these parts of the bill because this is interesting, but I will never forget the debate at the select committee about who the members of the Royal Society actually were as well as what they actually stood for. Thank you.

I move, That the question be now put.