Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill

I think the Hon Pete Hodgson, the member in the chair, explained the objective of the Royal Society very well. When I look at the objective as it now is in the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill, I see that it includes science, technology, and the humanities. I have been thinking about that. There is one word that is missing, and it is something that perhaps Pete Hodgson can put some light on. It is the word “research”. We have science and technology in the definition, and now we have the humanities. But what about research? I hope that Pete Hodgson will have some answer to that. Traditionally as scientists we have done the research and developed the science, and then we have had the role of technology and engineering in the advancement we have made through research, but that word is somehow missing from the objective in clause 6.

Historically, in the over 144 years since the existence of the Royal Society, the emphasis has been always on science and technology but not really on the humanities. I always thought that this was incomplete. The objective of the Royal Society has always been incomplete, because once we do the science and we do the technology, these technologies are actually used for humans. We use them for our environment, and we use them in our surroundings, so they have to have some impact on the environment that we live in. Clearly, we should have had the humanities in the functions of the Royal Society a long time ago.

We have spent a lot of money, particularly in blue-sky research and—rightly so—in biofuels. We have gone into genetically modified food and genetic engineering. We have put money into research and development. But in the humanities area there are linguistics and various languages, and there are the social sciences. I know that my colleague there, the former Associate Professor Rajen Prasad, has done a lot of work in the area of the social sciences, and in the child and family area. A lot of research has been done, and all of that work has been done on a scientific basis. It is not something that has just happened; it has been done on a scientific basis. Whether we take the humanities in totality or just in part, as in linguistics, languages, and culture—and religion, for that matter—I am very strongly of the view that the humanities should all have been a part of the objective of the Royal Society a long time ago. I am delighted, even at this time, that we are including the humanities as part of the objective of the Royal Society.

But I still want to know, from Pete Hodgson perhaps, or from somebody else who can enlighten me, why we do not have the word “research” in the objective, because technology and the sciences are developed on the basis of research done. If we do not have that, we cannot have the technologies and engineering that we have, and those of course impact on humans and the environment that we live in.

In the history of the Royal Society it is a significant milestone, if you like, that we are including the third leg of the three—science, technology, and now the humanities—as part of the objective of the Royal Society as we go forward. More and more we are becoming conscious of the impact of technology and the impact of new innovations on humans. Thank you.

It is a pleasure to stand along with my colleagues and speak in support of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill. In doing so I firstly acknowledge the role that the Royal Society plays. I myself, along with all of my colleagues—certainly those on this side of the Chamber—have enjoyed the lectures that the Royal Society provides for people who may not be at the highest level of the sciences. Indeed, the Royal Society does lecture in the humanities, I think it would be fair to say. Many of us have enjoyed going to those lectures within Parliament, and we have certainly been enlightened.

I congratulate the Royal Society, which has operated since 1867, on all the good work it does. We are celebrating the research, and I will speak very briefly to what Dr Choudhary said in terms of whether research should be included in the objective. I know that Dr Choudhary is a scientist at heart, but also by occupation. Research, whether it be in science or in the humanities, is so important. It has made an improvement in this country and, indeed, everywhere. It has improved everything. It has improved quality, whether it be in any form of health care, any form of understanding of where we come from, any form of culture, or anything to do with the humanities. That research is absolutely vital. This is the time to acknowledge the importance of the research. However, I think that extending the work that the Royal Society does in promoting science and technology to include the humanities is a very worthwhile cause.

I will talk about my daughter. She went to university, whereas I did my training on the job, as my partner would say, because I trained as a nurse. I did not go to university. I have had some influence in the past over my daughter, and she has often asked me for advice, but I left her to her own devices to go to university and talk about what she wanted to do. When she came home she told me she was going to do a conjoint commerce and arts degree, which seemed quite strange to me because she had never shown any interest in commerce, but there we go. But it was not until afterwards that she said she had been persuaded by the fellow who was talking to her on the day, who just happened to be the head of the commerce department, that it would be a good thing to do. At the eleventh hour she changed to a psychology degree, which of course encompassed the humanities and, indeed, some mathematics and other things that went along with it.

She came home a few months afterwards quite flattened. Someone had said to her that her degree was a BA, which meant—and I do not know whether I am allowed to say this in the Committee, but I will give it a go anyway—bugger all. That was the description of an arts degree. This was some time ago. I quite eloquently reassured her. She went on to have some very interesting career choices at her very young age, and I think that is wonderful.

I think, certainly, attitudes have changed, and with them the ability of everybody, really, to recognise the strengths that come from whatever dimension of education. It enriches people’s lives, and it enriches what people are able to contribute to their communities and to society; it is very, very worthwhile. I think this move to include the humanities in the Royal Society is really just another acknowledgment—the icing on the cake—of how important this issue is.

I am pleased to take a call on clause 6 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill. It is a source of great pride that a social scientist like me, who has spent a long period of time as a social scientist, will see the day when the Royal Society—this eminent organisation, which is historical, and has all the bells and whistles any scientist would seek to achieve—includes his or her particular discipline in the object of that particular august body. As a social scientist I am really pleased that we are here, although perhaps 30 years too late, because, indeed, the humanities and social sciences have been around a long time. It has taken some time to convince that august body that it was time to include this major area of study.

To now know that it will be the object of the Royal Society to enhance and promote this particular area is, indeed, a genuine source of great pleasure. But, of course, if I had it my way—and I invite the member in the chair, Pete Hodgson, to make some comments about this, if he could—I would ask why we do not fix the problem properly, and really signal that by using the nomenclature that is used outside; that is, the humanities and the social sciences. At the moment, the social sciences are not mentioned in the objects of the Royal Society. What is used out there, and it has been used for the years in which I have been to university and practised, is the composite term of the humanities and the social sciences.

We have invited the Royal Society to contemplate that matter, and I hope it will give us its thoughts on that, so that we may move a little bit further. The member in the chair may want to comment on that, and whether he has any thoughts about the reasons for not using the convention in this particular clause, so that, for once, we would have it complete. We would know it would be the object of the society to advance and promote in New Zealand science, technology, the humanities, and the social sciences. I think that would also give a great deal of comfort and confidence, and help people a great deal to identify with the Royal Society and its objectives. I look forward to hearing some comments from the member in the chair.

What will the Royal Society advance by including the humanities? What will it be advancing and promoting? Without wanting to go into the definition, there is something particular about the discipline of the humanities, and the subjects within that discipline, that is brought to human thinking, human endeavour, human activities generally, and human development, as well. The humanities, as one authority puts it, introduce us to the people we have never met, places we have never visited, and ideas that may never have crossed our minds. This is a whole new area of thinking. To promote that area through the work of the Royal Society is, indeed, quite an important addition to the society’s work and to the particular professions that arise out of those disciplines.

This move also does something else. It signals to any field of professional or other activity that there is a wide area of knowledge and information that can be utilised to enhance our professions, how we think, and how we operate. If I had my way I would use the American experience, so that everybody would need to include the humanities and the social sciences. It does that as well. Later on, when we talk about the functions of the Royal Society, we will be in a much better place to talk a little bit more about what it is, and how the functions will make this relationship come alive. Thank you.

I have had a couple of questions put to me by successive members, and I will quite quickly address them. The first question was from Ashraf Choudhary, who pointed out that clause 6 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill does not include the word “research”, and he wanted to know why not. This issue refers, I think, to some earlier remarks I made about the nomenclature of the phrase “research, science, and technology” that has been in our public lexicon for 20 years or so. Mr Choudhary asked why we have lost it now. I can understand why he asked that. I think it is a legitimate and valid question, and I think it has a legitimate and valid answer. Put simply, it is because the word “humanities” has been added. The word “research” can come out because the word “humanities” has been added.

By that I mean that science and research are synonymous, and technology and development are synonymous—or near enough. Synonymous is probably too strong a term, but those words have at least a very similar meaning. But science and technology do not describe, or begin to describe, that thing called “the humanities”. So the concept of the humanities has to find expression one way or another. In clause 6 it finds expression directly. The word “humanities” has been put in, in black letter law. So we now have the words “science, technology, and the humanities”.

In earlier times, 20 years ago, when we were talking about why the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology had that name, we examined those words and wondered why both “research” and “science” were needed. The answer was that it was a nod to the humanities, because the humanities were not explicitly mentioned. Certainly, the Ministry of Research, Science, and Technology, as an agency, did not concern itself with the humanities. The Ministry for Arts, Culture and Heritage did that. We had divided our State in such a way that the humanities could not be a part of the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology. But it is also the case that because the humanities are a part of scholarship, and because the Ministry of Research, Science and Technology was seriously involved with scholarship, we needed to put the word “Research” in there to give a nod to the humanities.

I suggest to Dr Ashraf Choudhary that we are entitled to give ground here. We are entitled to say that the word “research” is no longer needed in the legislation as it is. If “the humanities” by itself, in conjunction with the words “science and technology”, covers the patch, then we have no yawning gaps. This leads to another question in the name of another doctor. We are surrounded by doctors in the Chamber, especially on the Labour side. Dr Rajen Prasad, who is himself a social scientist, is asking whether, given that we now have the words “science, technology, and the humanities” sitting there, we have ambiguity about where social science finishes and the humanities start. This is evidenced, for example, by the ordinary Mr Chris Hipkins, who said that criminology is both an art and a science. Many things are both arts and sciences, including something that I am familiar with, called anaesthesiology. It is absolutely an art and a science.

💬 Chris Hipkins: Is that what he’s doing now?

It is what I am doing now.

💬 Jo Goodhew: Oh, that’s very rude.

No, I did not think so. I resemble that remark. I think the member is absolutely on the button here.

But can I just say to Dr Rajen Prasad that I think he is guilty of special pleading. That is what I think. I think that if Dr Rajen Prasad were to succeed in having the words “social sciences” put into black-letter law, then soon enough along would come Dr Ashraf Choudhary to ask what about the natural sciences, biological sciences, agricultural sciences, or whatever took his fancy. Someone else said physical sciences. I say that we should leave it alone, that we should let the word “science” be the broad church we all want it to be. Let the social scientists find their place in that broad church of science. Indeed, the member himself has made social science a much more relevant contributor to the public debate with his work in the Families Commission. I applaud him for that. But there is no need, in addition to that, to plead for a special mention because the social sciences are feeling on the outer or not quite as important.

Kia ora, Mr Chairperson. Ngā mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. It is great to take a call tonight on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill, and, in particular, on clause 6.

Before I begin, I say it is good to see this bill in the Committee. The Green Party will support it. Only the member for Mana has been in the House for a shorter time than me, and he might agree that the debate tonight on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill is probably the most intellectual debate that I have seen in my 1 year in this Chamber, particularly because of the calls taken by the member in the chair, the former Minister, Pete Hodgson.

It is good to be having this debate. I think it is crucial to talk about the humanities. In New Zealand in the last couple of decades the humanities have often been seen as a valueless part of academia or of our society. There has been a focus on research, science, and technology, yet the emphasis, from our universities to our schools, has been away from the humanities. So it is good to have this debate on this bill.

Clause 6 is the crucial clause; it is the clause that changes the object of the Royal Society. I have a whole bunch of questions, and they might be addressed in Supplementary Order Papers or in further calls tonight. First, I will look at the wording. My question is to the member in the chair, or to the members who were on the Education and Science Committee. I note that clause 6 is the only part of this albeit small bill that calls it only the “Society”, not the “Royal Society”. I am an avowed republican and I would like to see the Royal Society’s name changed, and maybe we will get to that part of the debate later on tonight. But I ask why the word “Royal” is not in this clause. Maybe another member can explain it. Maybe there is a common-sense explanation, but as a new member I am not sure what it is.

I have not particularly followed this bill through the House or the Education and Science Committee, but I thought I would take a call tonight, as I have a humanities academic background. At Victoria University of Wellington I studied religious studies and history, which are two of the areas listed in the definition in clause 5 of this bill. I have a postgraduate degree in political science, which is one of those topics on the cusp of definition: is it a science, is it humanities—

💬 Hon Judith Collins: You’re very unemployable apart from here, but really only here.

I thank the member very much for that contribution, which I could not quite hear. Anyway, I have a background in the humanities, which is why I thought I would take a call on this crucial clause. It is the only call I will be taking. Clause 6 amends the object of the society, which currently is “the advancement and promotion of science and technology in New Zealand”. We are adding the humanities to that object.

I was not able to take a call on clause 5, which dealt with the definitions, so I will raise a couple of questions corresponding to the decisions made on clause 5. Clause 5 defines the humanities subjects by listing them. They are languages—not specifically including English or te reo—history, religion, philosophy, and law. History and religion were the two degrees that I studied at university in Wellington. What is missing, of course, is a whole bunch of others, such as music, dance, visual arts, and sociology. I think the problem is—and I am not sure whether this was raised at the select committee, but it would be great if a member of the committee could take a call on it—that the humanities have been defined as a list of topics. An equally valid way to define the humanities is as an approach. One good quote I have found that shows the difference between the humanities and the sciences is that the humanities are not defined by a list of topics; they are defined by an approach to the question. It is all about the question one asks. That definition defines the humanities as an interpretive method of finding truth, rather than explaining the causality of events or uncovering the truth of the natural world.

I think we will find, when using clause 5 and defining the humanities as a list of topics—some of which we agree with, some of which we disagree with, and some of which are not included, such as te reo or indigenous studies—we will see, in an increasingly technological world, a whole bunch of potential new humanities subjects coming in that will not be defined in this legislation. In the future we may find ourselves in this Chamber adding more topics, as our society is enriched and we find new fields of study for the advancement of approaching the question that is the humanities.

I think we might rightfully see that this clause amends the work of the Royal Society. People will challenge the Royal Society because it is not adequately advocating for, promoting, or advancing their particular topic. A hypothetical example is astrology. Maybe astrology is a humanities subject or maybe it is a science. I personally disagree with it. There is the science of studying mysterious animals like the Sasquatch or Bigfoot. Someone could legitimately go the Royal Society and say: “This is what I define a humanities subject as. Why aren’t you advancing or promoting my humanities subject?”. I think that possibly the problem in clause 5 is that we have defined the humanities as a list of subjects when, in fact, maybe we should not have listed—

I move, That the question be now put.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak on the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill. It is my first call tonight, and one of a couple, I hope. Before I talk on the bill, as this is the first opportunity I have had to address the Chamber since the aftershocks in Christchurch, I send my sympathies to the men, women, and children of Canterbury, and also to the members of Parliament from across the Committee who hail from Canterbury. Our sympathies and support go out to them, too.

We are talking on clause 6 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill, which substitutes the new object clause. New section 5 in clause 6 states: “The object of the Society is the advancement and promotion in New Zealand of science, technology, and the humanities.” As the member in the chair, Pete Hodgson, said earlier in this debate, this clause is really at the heart of the bill. It changes the focus of the Royal Society from focusing strictly on science and technology, as it has since 1867, and future-proofs the society by bringing the humanities into the realm of the Royal Society.

Just in case people have just switched off Coronation Street and do not know what the definition of “humanities” is under this bill, I say that it includes languages, which obviously are very important here in New Zealand, with our own official language of te reo. It is good that languages have entered the realm of the Royal Society. It is interesting that there was a debate at the Education and Science Committee as to whether English or te reo should be specifically included in the bill, but at this stage they are not. The humanities also include history. For a young nation it is promising to see that subject enter the realm of the Royal Society. They also include religion, philosophy, law, classics, linguistics, literature, cultural studies, media studies—I think that in this age of new media that is an advance for the Royal Society—art history, film, and drama.

As I said, this bill moves the focus of the Royal Society towards the humanities, but I hope the Royal Society does not lose its focus on research, science, and technology. Since 1867 it really has been a champion to make sure that our scientists, our research, and our technology have been cutting edge. Through awards like the Rutherford Medal and scholarships, it has ensured that New Zealand research, science, and technology stay world class.

Since late 2008 there has been a debate on making sure that the focus of the society changes. This is an advancement, but I think it is very important that we have a champion in science to make sure that we are pushing it. Although we welcome the humanities coming into the realm of the Royal Society, it is very important that we have a focus on science and innovation to ensure that our economy remains highly skilled, and that we have a workforce that ensures economic success for our country. It is very important that the Royal Society makes sure that that continues and that we have a champion in this area. It is obviously very important for that function of the Royal Society to continue, because research and development are essential for our productivity to grow and for our economic success. So I really hope that although the humanities have come into its realm, the Royal Society will continue its focus and its heritage around science.

It is also very important that the focus of the society remains on science and technology because New Zealand’s private business research and development spend is one of the lowest in the OECD. We need to make sure we have a separate body that ensures that although our spend on research and development in comparison with other OECD nations is low, someone outside the realm of business and the Government is pushing to make sure that we are doing the best that we can, and that we are continuing to make sure we have scientists and technicians in crucial areas for our businesses, to ensure our technology is cutting edge.

It is also very important that the Royal Society continues its focus on science and technology, as it has since 1867, because compared with other countries we are still lagging behind. We continue to stagnate, in terms of our growth, because of a lack of investment in science and technology. It is very important. Although we welcome this change of focus and this change of object for the Royal Society, I would hate to see the voice it has had since 1867 on science and technology get drowned out, because that voice is very important.

I move, That the question be now put.

Motion agreed to.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Clause 7 New section 6 substituted