Appropriation (2026/27 Estimates) Bill

Committee of the whole House

Kia ora, Mr Chair. Well, it’s very clear throughout this entire debate that the Government has not managed their time sufficiently to be able to address each of the portfolio areas. We had this issue in Social Development and Employment. We just saw that in Housing. Now, we have Children. I hope that with the time that we have remaining, the Minister for Children from a different political party does have a bit of time and can engage with us.

With that, I want to start on reports of concern. We have seen reports that the number of reports of concern have increased significantly, and I want to know what is in the Budget to address that increase in reports of concern. I also note that, in terms of the performance measure, the target is 95 percent responded to, but that is consistently not achieved, so can the Minister please talk to that.

Committee of the whole House

Before I start, Mr Chair, I think I’ll just go through a little bit of the Budget initiatives. First of all, I’d just like to acknowledge the work that Oranga Tamariki staff do each and every day. These people are out there every day in our communities making a difference in people’s lives, and I think we need to acknowledge that. Since becoming Minister of Children, my focus has been clear. It’s on the safety and wellbeing of children and young people, and that must always come first.

Through site visits up and down the country, I’ve had many conversations with front-line workers, and I know firsthand that the staff understand better than anyone else how important their role is, which is why the question from the member is so important, because it is raised around the reports of concern and around the pressure that is on the system. There has been a 45 percent increase in reports of concern over the last few years. Some of that is because we’ve changed the reporting measures in how we report, because the way we were reporting beforehand left some gaps for young people where repeat reports of concern weren’t considered as separate reports of concern, they were considered as one, so that has been part of the rise.

In this year’s Budget initiatives, the total 2026 Budget package for Vote Oranga Tamariki brings in an extra $212.8 million over five years, as well as $800,000 of capital funding across three areas of Government priority, and $93.5 million operating and $800,000 capital expenditure funding over four years for additional staffed care placements for increasing numbers of children with high and complex needs. It will also enhance the range of care responses and intensive clinical services to prevent escalation of needs and placement breakdowns, providing better outcomes for children and their families, and, ultimately, less repeated reports of concern; $90.5 million over four years to respond to the increased number of reports of concern and to implement efficiency measures that improve delivery timeliness; $27.7 million over two years to progress the implementation of the recommendations made in the Dame Karen Poutasi Review—that funding will enable Oranga Tamariki to respond to increased demand for services, including increased reports of concern and Family Court applications; $1.4 million over five years to address the implementation costs for Oranga Tamariki arising from the resolution agreement for the Statford v Attorney-General High Court case, and this funding will meet costs arising from the transfer of old land assets under the resolution agreement and the lease block backed Oranga Tamariki.

In regards to the reports of concern, Oranga Tamariki continues to address the numbers received, which have substantially increased since mid-2024. The Budget has provided targeted funding to help Oranga Tamariki meet these pressures and deliver safe and timely services for tamariki and rangatahi. Recruitment is continuing for more national contact centre support workers and allied support workers, which will help improve front-line capacity. This sits alongside other improvements under way across intake and assessment, including a new online report of concern form, making it easier for notifiers to share concerns, and further recruitment efforts are happening.

Committee of the whole House

Is the Minister for Children confident that the 95 percent target will be met in 2026-2027?

Committee of the whole House

Those that are reportable on my ministerial priorities, I made reportable for that reason so that it is out there and there is the continuous pressure to make sure that they’re doing better and reporting on that. We are doing our best and we have seen slow but steady upward successes in all four areas that I’ve made my priorities, and I expect it to continue rising.

Committee of the whole House

Thank you, Mr Chair. The Minister for Children didn’t answer my question. My question is: is the Minister confident that the 95 percent target for reports of concern will be met in 2026-27? I look forward to the Minister answering that question. I will also ask the Minister, how can the House expect that those performance measures will be met when an additional $33 million worth of cuts to preventative programmes has happened in this year’s Budget?

CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): Are you going to take a call, Kahurangi Carter? No? Willow-Jean Prime.

Hon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME: I’m not sure if the Minister just needs more time to get answers to those questions that I’ve asked or if she is refusing to answer those questions.

Hon Karen Chhour: Keep talking.

CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): That’s all right. Look, Kahurangi Carter.

Hon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME: Oh, refusing to answer those questions.

CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): Yeah, so, Willow-Jean Prime, if you want to take a call, just keep saying it.

Hon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME: Sure. Thank you. Well, it’s very clear that the Minister is actually choosing not to answer those questions. Just to make it clear for the House, I have asked, is the Minister confident that the 95 percent target for reports of concern will be met in the 2026-2027 year? Further to that, I want to ask questions about social workers and the front line. After highlighting that we have an additional $33 million being cut from prevention services, my question to the Minister is, how many children in statutory care are not getting regular contact with their social worker? How many children do not have a social worker allocated to them? And are front-line social workers being protected? Are personnel funding falling and placement costs rising? What in the Budget is there to ensure that our tamariki are getting the social work support that they are entitled to?

CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): Just to note, we’re down to about three minutes for Labour and seven minutes for the Greens, I think.

Camilla Belich: How much time does the Minister have?

CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): I’m not sure.

Committee of the whole House

Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister for Children, you’ve just confirmed that there has been an increase in the number of reports of concern, and I would like you to also confirm that uplifts of children has increased, actually, almost doubled since 2021-22. If you could confirm that—

CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): Could you just repeat that last bit? It didn’t come through the speaker.

KAHURANGI CARTER: Yeah, sure. Minister, can you confirm that uplifts of children from families have increased under your watch—in fact, almost doubled—since 2021-2022? Of course, uplifts are when agents or police go and take a child from their guardians into State care. Could you please confirm that, Minister?

Committee of the whole House

I don’t have the exact number of uplifts in front of me. If you would put that in writing, I can get that answer to you. What I would say is that if a young person needs to be taken into a safer environment, that is what needs to happen. I would never want to set a target that has a negative effect of leaving young people in homes where they’re not safe. So whilst uplifts should be the last resort, if a young person is not safe, then they should not be left in an unsafe home.

My reasoning behind that is these poor social workers are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. They go into some environments where people could not comprehend what those social workers are seeing. They have to make a judgment call on making sure that a young person is safe. Sometimes that means an uplift. It should be the last resort, which is why I’ve worked so hard with Oranga Tamariki around our Enabling Communities programme, where we allow communities to step in and do what they do best, which means that there is more of a community role to play than just Government. Government alone cannot fix this problem.

We have a lot of pilots that have been established up and down the country at the moment. One of them is around the reports of concern, and making sure that the reports of concern actually get somebody at the doorstep finding out what that family needs. Often it might not meet the level of Oranga Tamariki intervention, but it doesn’t mean that they don’t need help. So by working with community, community can knock on that door and say, “How can we help?” so that we don’t get those repeat reports of concern, that escalation of harm that leads to uplifts.

We’re seeing some pretty positive results. Waikato-Tainui have been working with Government for quite a few years now. We’re seeing a massive decrease in young people coming into care because community’s stepping up before the harm reaches that level. I will say again, I will not set a target of not removing children from homes to meet a target. If they’re unsafe, then I want them in a safe environment.

Committee of the whole House

Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, during Budget scrutiny we got a chance to question you in the Social Services and Community Committee. I questioned you specifically around—

CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): Just redirect it through the Chair.

KAHURANGI CARTER: Apologies, Mr Chair. I had a chance to question the Minister for Children in Budget scrutiny. During that, I did give the exact figures which the Minister has just said that she hasn’t heard and hasn’t been available to her. So I would say that has been done and it would be great if the officials could look into those, because an almost doubling of children being taken out of their homes and into State care—something that in Budget scrutiny you also could not guarantee their safety once they are in State care. Minister, do you agree that being in State care does not mean more safety for children?

Committee of the whole House

Look, I can’t stand here and say that I fixed generations of problems in three years. There’s been a massive problem across the State care system for many, many, many years. You can’t fix those problems in three years. My focus is, if Oranga Tamariki is intervening and does have to uplift children, that those children are safer than they were before they were uplifted.

I am once again going to say, these children are not being kidnapped or taken, as you are wording it. We have to have a judge’s agreement to remove those children. There is a high threshold that has to be proven that those children are at risk. It’s not just an Oranga Tamariki decision, it’s also a court decision. I just would hate to not say that Oranga Tamariki social workers are trying to keep these young people safe.

The reason I won’t guarantee that is because I can’t make guarantees like that in life. I can’t guarantee what every single person in this country is going to do behind closed doors. But what I can say is that I expect the agency to hold people accountable to the highest level if someone is hurting and harming our young people and to make sure that we are putting all the preventions in place to minimise that risk for young people.

Committee of the whole House

Thank you, Mr Chair. I understand I have 10 minutes and the Minister has just under 40 minutes, so there’s sufficient time to answer my question. Is the Minister confident that 95 percent target will be met for reports of concerns in 2026-2027?

Committee of the whole House

I’ve already stated that out of the four priorities, there’s been consistent rise, and I expect it to continue rising.

Committee of the whole House

Thank you, Mr Chair. That doesn’t answer my question. Is the Minister confident that the 95 percent target for reports of concern will be met in the 2026-2027 financial year?

Committee of the whole House

Thank you, Mr Chair. The Minister has just talked about prevention. We know that when we look back over the Minister’s term that she has been very clear from the start that the focus is on statutory care, not on prevention. In fact, $62.7 million was cut in that 2023 Budget for safety and prevention organisations and support services—support services who wrap around children, whānau, and communities before harm occurs.

The Minister chose to cut that, jumping into the 6.5 percent savings. I’ll just caveat that—saving money for a Budget on the backs of our most vulnerable children is despicable to me. But I’ll get back to my question here. With prevention, one of the key drivers of children going into State care, where the Minister cannot guarantee that they will not be harmed, does the Minister agree that poverty is a factor that creates the conditions for children to be unsafe and living in poverty increases the risk of children being harmed?

Minister, would you come to the conclusion that the Government’s policies, which have increased children living in material hardship—let me just find those figures—169,300 children in Aotearoa living in material hardship; that’s one out of every seven. Do you agree that the conditions that the Government and that this Minister has been a part of have created more risk of children being harmed and therefore more risk of children being put into State care, and that is a direct correlation of the conditions that have been made by this Government and the Minister’s decision to save money by cutting prevention safety children’s organisations?

Committee of the whole House

Just because the member says it, doesn’t make it correct. Oranga Tamariki was exempt from savings. We are still spending the same amount of money that we spent the years before. We prioritised a lot of funding. We’ve changed the way that we are doing our procurement and contracting. We are no longer looking at activity focused contracts or output focused contracts, we’re looking at outcome focused contracts. We looked at duplication. We looked at a whole lot of areas where, actually, that funding got reprioritised. You may like certain organisations and, yes, organisations did get affected by this, but ultimately—

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Did you apologise?

Hon KAREN CHHOUR: No, I’m not going to apologise, because, ultimately, we have to provide the best services for our children and make sure that we are putting the money in the right places and making sure that we are spending it on outcomes for our children. So the more you say “cuts”—you can say it as much as you like, but that doesn’t make it correct. It was reprioritised. You may not like the answer, but that’s the answer.

Also, I apologise. I have some numbers here that I didn’t realise I had in front of me around entries into care. So total entry into care under all order types: 1,494 total entries to care for the 1,433 distinct children and young people. So 789 total entries to youth justice and 497 distinct children and young people. So those are the numbers that you wanted before.

CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): Just before I take the next call, just to inform members that this debate will end at 5.20 p.m. and we’re about to run out of time. There’s 10 more minutes to run in this debate, so you might want to make succinct questions.

Committee of the whole House

Sure. Thank you, Mr Speaker. So it’s interesting that the Minister is choosing not to confirm that she is confident that we will meet the 95 percent target for reports of concern. Secondly, it’s interesting that the Minister talks about there not being a cost savings exercise, it was a reprioritisation, where we had over $120 million of services for prevention and early intervention reprioritised—really, cut—and then given to find something else.

So I want to turn to something else that’s being funded with significant funding, and that’s in the youth justice space. That’s the military-style academy. Can the Minister please tell the House how much has been budgeted per participant for the military-style academy?

Committee of the whole House

Funding for the future military-style academies was confirmed in Budget 2025, with $31.132 million operating costs allocated over 4 years. This funding covers both the residential and community phases of the programme. The future military-style academies (MSAs) are dependent on the Oranga Tamariki (Responding to Serious Youth Offending) Amendment Bill being passed, which will also enable a MSA programme as the sentencing option for young people declared as young serious offenders (YSOs). As Oranga Tamariki awaits the passing of the legislation, following discussions with myself and Treasury, funding was accessed to run a second MSA programme over the 2026-27 financial year. This second programme is built on the format of the pilot programme, with 10 young people commencing the programme on a voluntary basis. These young people were selected because of their serious persistent offending and because they were likely to meet the criteria of the proposed YSO declaration.

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: How much per participant?

Hon KAREN CHHOUR: I cannot say exactly how much per person, because each young person that comes into the MSA will have their own individualised programme. We may need more counselling, they may need more support services, they may need more mentors. Your question was around how much per child. That’s absolutely impossible for me to predict because each child will have their own bespoke programme.

Committee of the whole House

Thank you, Mr Chair. The Minister could give us an average per participant. What does the modelling show in terms of how many young people this $30 million appropriation will cover?

Committee of the whole House

Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I really appreciate something that you have shared with all of us—

CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): Just through the Chair—you keep referring to the Minister.

KAHURANGI CARTER: I thank you, Mr Chair—apologies again. Mr Chair, I appreciate that the Minister for Children has been focused on kids who are currently in State care, and that has created the conditions, alongside other Government policies, for there to be an increase in the number of kids who are being uplifted without warning from families, something that is harmful—children are being harmed—and that the Minister is not taking responsibility for cutting over $60 million of funding to prevention, safety, and care organisations even after Aroturuki Tamariki, the Independent Children’s Monitor, has gone through with a fine-tooth comb and rebutted so many of the reasons why those cuts were made to those organisations, reasons that the Minister has just spouted again: double-ups of services, reprioritising money somewhere else. What the Minister is actually saying is that prevention was not a priority, even though the Minister for Children is also the Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence. So I’d like to know, Minister, when prevention funding is cut and there is an increase in children in care and there is an increase in children living in poverty—one of the key drivers to kids going into care—and there is an increase in uplifts of children, and seven out of 10 of those kids in care are Māori, can she really say that she is working on prevention?

Committee of the whole House

Prevention is a really important part of the programme, and we have been working on prevention, which is why I spoke to—going up and down the country. I think there’s been about 42 hui with the leadership team up and down the country, with community providers, to work out where the money is best invested, making sure that we are filling the gaps in some communities that haven’t had any services, and then looking at communities where there are a lot of services and a lot of duplication, where that money could be invested in a community that has had no investment and no services. Not everybody’s going to be happy. But once again, I am not going to apologise for Oranga Tamariki uplifting young people who are in unsafe environments. It doesn’t mean it’s forever, but if a young person is in immediate danger and Oranga Tamariki doesn’t intervene, you’re the first people to go to the media and scream out loud, “Why didn’t Oranga Tamariki intervene?” We have to make sure we get the balance right. Young people must be safe. Their safety and wellbeing must come first, and I’m not going to apologise if young people are being removed from unsafe homes.

Committee of the whole House

Thank you, Mr Chair. During the Estimates debate, I asked the Minister questions around the management of Korowai Manaaki, and she said, in answer to that question, that she was absolutely confident in the management of Korowai Manaaki. Since then, we have heard about a violent incident where a young person was made to walk the line and was hit and punched by other rangatahi. So my question to the Minister is, is she confident in the management of Korowai Manaaki?

Committee of the whole House

The member will know through the massive amount of questions that she sent through to my office on the subject, the answer to what Oranga Tamariki has done in order to review and to make sure that that incident hasn’t happened previously, going through CCTV footage to make sure that there hasn’t been a repeat event. I’m absolutely—

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Are you confident in its management?

Hon KAREN CHHOUR: Do you want the answer?

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Yes.

Hon KAREN CHHOUR: I’m absolutely proud of the people who came forward and actually spoke up that this was happening. If they hadn’t spoken up, we wouldn’t have known. We need to make sure that the kids are safe and when we find out something has happened that we deal with it, and we make sure we put things in place to prevent it from happening again. I have all confidence that Oranga Tamariki is investigating this, has dealt with the staff in question, but has also put in some training for staff in regard to boundaries, manipulation, and skills to understand manipulation, to make sure that we don’t get a repeat of what happened.

Committee of the whole House

My question was, after that incident happened and after we had Estimates and she said she was absolutely confident, is she still absolutely confident in the management of Korowai Manaaki?

Committee of the whole House

Compared to what I inherited, absolutely.

Committee of the whole House

Is the Minister also confident in the management of the other youth justice facilities and that there are not other instances of harm occurring for our young people, Te Maioha being an example?

Committee of the whole House

Look, as I’ve said in answer to a previous question, I cannot guarantee the behaviour of absolutely every single person that works for Oranga Tamariki, but what I can guarantee is we do everything that we can to prevent harm. Part of that was, when I first came in as Minister, I couldn’t believe that youth justice, after all these years, didn’t even have any standard operating practices. Even McDonald’s has standard operating practices. But no, there was nothing to tell their staff what was expected of them, and we wondered why it was as bad as it was.

We’ve implemented standard operating practices, we’ve professionalised the workforce. We have an induction programme now, instead of tracking staff on the floor with young people and expecting things to not go wrong. So when you ask me if I’m confident in youth justice, I’m a hell of a lot more confident now than I was when I first walked in.

Committee of the whole House

Is the Minister aware of a recent incident that occurred at Te Maioha where a rangatahi, I understand, was hospitalised due to an assault?

Committee of the whole House

The member will be aware, from being in Government previously and being a Minister previously, that these incidents happen. Some of these young people are some of the most complex young people. That’s why they’re in youth justice in the first place. We can’t guarantee that nothing is going to go wrong, and I will say that over and over again. If somebody sits in this chair and guarantees that, they’re lying.

You cannot guarantee that nothing is going to go wrong. What you can guarantee is that you’re going to do everything you can to make the place better.

CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): Members, the time for this debate has now expired.

A party vote was called for on the question, That the votes contained in the Estimates of Appropriation for 2026-27 stand part of the schedules.

Ayes 67

New Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.

Noes 55

New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te Pāti Māori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.

Motion agreed to.

A party vote was called for on the question, That clauses 1 to 10 and Schedules 1 to 5 be agreed to.

Ayes 67

New Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.

Noes 55

New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te Pāti Māori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.

Clauses 1 to 10 and Schedules 1 to 5 agreed to.

Bill to be reported without amendment.

House resumed.

CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): Madam Speaker, the committee has further considered the Appropriation (2026/27 Estimates) Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.

A party vote was called for on the question, That the report be adopted.

Ayes 67

New Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.

Noes 55

New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te Pāti Māori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.

Motion agreed to.

Report adopted.

Local Government (Rates Capping) Amendment Bill

Legislative Statement