Estimates Debate — Māori Development

Members, the Associate Minister of Justice’s time in the chair has come to an end. Thank you, Minister. We now have the Minister for Māori Development. The Minister is available to speak to that portfolio from 9.30 p.m. until the end of the evening.

Thank you, Mr Chair. The total appropriation sought for Vote Māori Development is $512.7 million. This is actually bigger than the amount budgeted for in 2024, because it includes appropriations transferred from the former Vote Te Arawhiti. In essence, Te Puni Kōkiri now holds the relationship with iwi post-settlement governance entities.

The committee also discussed Māori housing, with areas of focus on this subject being new homes being built in Rotorua, Whai Kāinga Whai Oranga, papa kāinga, rangatahi transitional housing, and the accommodation supplement review.

Another focus was the procurement process of new Whānau Ora contracts. We heard that under the new contracts, Te Puni Kōkiri intends to be able to prove that Whānau Ora works by including five shifts, these shifts being: greater service reach, particularly to populations most in need; a strengthened evidence base; data-driven investment planning; better front-line workforce development and retention; and stronger risk management processes.

Although there were other matters traversed during our scrutiny hearing, these are a few of the pertinent ones. Thank you, Mr Chair.

Mr Chair, thanks for this time. I’ve got, obviously, a number of questions for the Minister but, first of all, in the Māori housing space, can we have some clarification from the Minister in terms of how much money was transferred out of Whai Kāinga Whai Oranga, given that that was a major development for us in the previous Government? It was landmark stuff; we were talking about investments of over $700 million. Can I get some clarification on the Whai Kāinga Whai Oranga scheme?

There’s been some investment in Te Tairāwhiti, but I’m not clear, because looking at the Budget figures, am I correct in saying that $400 million was transferred out of the Whai Kāinga Whai Oranga scheme into the general fund—into the flexible fund—as Minister Bishop was saying?

Again, can I ask the Minister what the opportunities are for Māori providers in the housing space. Is he satisfied that there is priority given, or are Māori providers missing out, which seems to be the case that we’re hearing in areas like Rotorua? I just wanted to start off in that area.

Can I also now come to the Whānau Ora space, because it’s been a very controversial area. I want to ask, this being the time to traverse that area: we’ve seen questions from John Tamihere in terms of the process of Whānau Ora and in terms of how the Te Puni Kōkiri process—this is all Budget related, because, basically, the Te Pou Matakana northern agency lost all of their funding in this area; they’ve lost the contract. But what John Tamihere is implying is that that was already a done deal. He has put up evidence to say that the CEO for Te Puni Kōkiri had already made a decision in terms of the process of Whānau Ora, in terms of the future of Whānau Ora. It seems to be the case that he was held responsible, given his affiliations, in terms of being the president of Te Pāti Māori.

Can I hear from the Minister: is there any truth in what Mr Tamihere is saying? He also said that the Minister was a disgrace to te ao Māori and has alleged that—the Minister will be aware of this, it’s been well publicised—

Dana Kirkpatrick: Does this relate to the Budget?

Hon WILLIE JACKSON: That’s absolutely about the Budget. John Tamihere lost his whole budget, so I would like some clarification on this, because there are allegations—and I don’t like saying this, because I’ve worked very closely with Te Puni Kōkiri, but he has questioned the process, he has said that the process was corrupted, and he is saying that the chief executive of Te Puni Kōkiri had already made decisions with regards to this Whānau Ora decision-making process.

I wish to address the Minister for Māori Development in relation to Whakaata Māori, knowing that Whakaata Māori has suffered a budget cut that is significant in terms of the way that they’ve already lost staff and are now trying to project forward in terms of what their position is for both sustainability and also to achieve the goals and aspirations of Te Whare o te Reo Mauriora.

I’m wanting to celebrate the wins of Whakaata Māori, in terms of their social outcomes report that they launched earlier this year, where they shared that they’ve given a massive social value, created out of their small budget over $100 million worth of social value. They shared that they have had 2.5 million annual viewers, including the new 4.8 million digital users and all those social media interactions that they’ve had, and that Māori viewers feel more connected to te ao Māori. They’re showing this value on the smell of an oily rag—a budget of a smell of an oily rag—and the viewers are connecting more with te ao Māori. The reo is more active and reo speakers are engaging with te reo Māori and improving their proficiency through Whakaata Māori.

With all these findings in the report—and I acknowledge all of those that were in the whare with us at Whakaata Māori, celebrating the release of this groundbreaking report that really highlights the value above and beyond what is funded by the Crown right now—I’m keen to understand from the Minister, knowing that they are achieving so much, knowing that they have lost a lot of institutional knowledge and staff who had been within the organisation for an extended period of time, how we can look to the future for a strong reo Māori, vibrant Whakaata Māori, as a part of our independent fourth estate, as well, knowing that we have got this limited budget.

What are some of the wins that he has seen from Whakaata Māori, over this last period, that we can also celebrate and stand alongside? What are those plans? What can we do to improve this space and invest in such an important part of our te reo Māori celebration of language, culture, and heritage and further the broadcasting, social media, and Māori media landscape?

Further to what Hūhana Lyndon was saying, I would like to get something, eventually, I suppose, from the Minister for Māori Development. Anything would be fine. There are so many areas to traverse, so I’ll traverse them all if you like.

In terms of Māori broadcasting, it is important for the Chamber to understand the history of Whakaata Māori—particularly given that the Minister has given no extra funding to Whakaata Māori. No extra funding has also gone into Māori broadcasting. It is an absolute travesty that this has happened, given the contribution that Māori—and I acknowledge our broadcasting spokesman here, Reuben Davidson, who is our broadcasting spokesman, but Māori broadcasting comes under the Minister for Māori Development. The obstacles that Māori broadcasting have had to work through have been incredibly tough over the years.

What we’ve had to do with Māori broadcasting is start almost two generations after mainstream broadcasting started. When you look at Television New Zealand, for instance, it started in 1960, and Whakaata Māori - Māori Television in 2004. People talk about taxpayers funding, and we know the ACT Party doesn’t like Māori getting funding, and they always ask—David Seymour will always ask—why should they keep getting funded? Well, because they started a couple of generations after mainstream television.

It’s important that the Minister in this Government funds Whakaata Māori adequately. At the moment, there is no funding coming from this Minister to Whakaata Māori. There is no funding from this Minister and this Government going to iwi radio at the moment. I want to know from the Minister—if he’s ever going to answer a question—if he has got any plans to change that. Will there be a strategy around iwi radio and Whakaata Māori, whose primary base is to support te reo Māori? It’s really tough if the Government is not going to fund the entities adequately.

At the moment, we have a Government that is saying, “We’ll look after the tobacco companies, and we’ll look after the landlords, and we’ll borrow”—how much was it, Arena?—“$14 billion in terms of tax. We’ll do all that, but we won’t give the Māori one cent.” This is absolute fact. I feel—because I came from that area, in terms of Māori broadcasting—that this Minister, given his background and history, and this Government, also given their history, should make a real effort in terms of funding Māori broadcasting.

What is the plan? When I was the Minister, this Minister had said that we should have baselined things, and that’s a fair challenge, but what we were doing was we were giving money at different times, so our broadcasters had to manage their business affairs around that. Surely, a better strategy, in terms of Whakaata Māori, in terms of Māori kaupapa full stop, would be to baseline.

I address our Māori members on the other side. This is one of the problems they would see in terms of kaupapa Māori initiatives. Māori always have to live off the smell of an oily rag. They do not have any base. It’s always at the whim of the of Governments. Surely, the Minister might have a strategy in terms of baselining funding. In terms of Whānau Ora—that was an area that we actually baselined, in terms of Te Pou Matakana—we baselined that funding, but Māori funding struggles all the way through. Now, the consequences of that are that te ao Māori struggles because we don’t know where the next dollar is going to come from.

I’m asking the Minister tonight how important Māori broadcasting is. It’s just about—and I shouldn’t say that “It’s just about”. The primary reason Whakaata Māori was set up was to support te reo Māori. Iwi radio was set up to support te reo Māori. These iwi stations—21 in total—are conduits to our community. They connect us to our community. When you have a civil defence catastrophe or crisis, our iwi stations—whether it’s Radio Ngati Porou or Te Hiku or Te Korimako in Taranaki—feed and look after our communities. They do more than just support te reo Māori.

My question tonight is: what is this Minister going to do? What is this Minister going to do to support our iwi stations? As Hūhana Lyndon said—I think, Hūhana, we were there at their promotion, but the Minister was nowhere to be seen.

Hūhana Lyndon: Unfortunately!

Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Nowhere to be seen, unfortunately.

Arena Williams: Just like this debate.

Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Yeah, that’s right. Just like this debate, but kei te pai, I’ll just keep talking till 10 o’clock.

In terms of Whakaata Māori, Māori radio, te reo Māori, I want to know where is the strategy. Today, we—myself, and Peeni Henare, and Cushla Tangaere-Manuel—went to Te Taura Whiri—noticed that the Minister wasn’t there today, too. We went to Te Taura Whiri, which is our Māori language agency, and they gave us their strategy, their rautaki, for the year coming. Things are bleak in that area. Now, this Government, like us, I think, are—well, I would hope—committed to getting one million Māori language speakers by 2040. I’m going to put that question on the table now. It’d be lovely if the Minister could answer one question before 10 o’clock. I know they’re tough questions. I know he’s struggling. He’s thinking about it, and he’s writing it all down. But, if he doesn’t, kei te pai; I’ll just keep talking.

I would like to know, given that we made a commitment as a Government to te reo Māori, is that commitment still there with this useless Government? It’s a Government, as we well know, that is continually attacking kaupapa Māori initiatives. Has the Minister succumbed to David Seymour and Winston Peters? As we all know in the House, sadly, Winston Peters disgraces himself, every now and then, when he refuses to acknowledge Aotearoa as the Māori name of this country. Has that type of pressure from Winston Peters in the House now flowed on to this Minister?

Here’s the question, because we’re on Budgets: where is the extra money? Where is the extra money? We’re talking about te reo Māori, because as I said, we went to Te Taura Whiri today. Where is the extra money for our reo? I’ve asked questions about Whānau Ora, I’ve asked questions about Māori TV, I’ve asked questions about Māori radio, and now I’m asking questions about te reo Māori. Is there a plan to get any extra money for te reo Māori in the next Budget, Minister, or are we going to just allow Winston Peters to embarrass the language and this country every few days in the House when he rejects the beautiful name Aotearoa?

I would ask, in that area, whether there is a plan in terms of increasing the reo. What is happening in terms of the Maihi Karauna? What is happening in that area? Is that happening still? Does the Minister have regular meetings in terms of the Crown and in terms of what’s happening with the different agencies? Is he pushing the different agencies in terms of their te reo Māori obligations? It would be very, very interesting to hear. Thank you very much.

Mr Chair, thank you for giving me the opportunity to really build into some patience in my life, listening to this spray of a variety of issues, sometimes evidenced by facts but generally evidenced by opinions and hearsay.

The question of where is the additional money for te reo Māori is one that I understand Dr Rawinia Higgins asked of the then Minister, Willie Jackson, for many years for Te Tairāwhiti, and there was no material increase to the funding for Te Tairāwhiti. I’m sure he was reminded of that today in his attendance over at Te Tairāwhiti whilst I was working with Taranaki Whānui and others at Mātai Moana to establish a reserve that will be managed by Taranaki Whānui and the Wellington City Council.

In relation to the variety of cash injections—time limited—that the former Minister made in a variety of broadcasting entities, including te reo Māori broadcasting entities, we continue to maintain the baseline that was established under the previous Government. We’re very happy to continue to maintain that baseline and, also, on occasion, consider other opportunities to support the adequate protection of te reo Māori, whether or not that is some of the mahi that Minister Erica Stanford has been doing around decodable books in te reo Māori—first time ever—that will be deployed across the schooling system next year, or other tactics and undertakings that we are making as this Government.

Yes, we do have fiscal responsibility at the heart of much of the decision making that we undertake, and it’s something that we continue to abide by. I’m not saying that all Governments do that; we do. Others might not and others may not have, but that’s where we land in relation to the allocation of funding across a number of portfolios. Whilst the member may have referred to te ao Māori struggling, there are actually many, many things that te ao Māori is doing very well. Tomorrow, I look forward to welcoming Ngāti Rēhia to this House, where the first reading for the return of Kororipo Pā to Ngāti Rēhia, on behalf of all of Ngāpuhi, will be undertaken. Hopefully my good friend, my Remuera twin, Minister Metekōura Goldsmith will be here as well.

There was an adjunct reference to Te Pou Matakana and John Tamihere making some allegations and using random descriptions, sometimes laced with prejudice and bias towards me, and I appreciate those. Some of them are sub judice, and those allegations will be retained in judicial forums. Others are wildly inaccurate and—how to describe it nicely, Mr Chair—severely adjacent to the truth. Te Puni Kōkiri makes decisions according to the processes that it undertakes, not on the basis of party politics, and the Whānau Ora decisions have been made on the basis of the process that Te Pou Matakana and others participated in.

As of this date, I’ve not received any complaints from any providers or any navigators that continue to serve their whānau and their communities under Whānau Ora 2.0, the new commissioning arrangements that are in place. I’ve not heard one since the new commissioning agencies took over Whānau Ora in early July this year. We had a wonderful, absolutely fantastic embarkation point out at Hongoeka Marae earlier in July this year for those four new commission agencies.

Yes, Whānau Ora has moved in a different direction. We think that it will be really focused on evidence-based attribution of the investment of taxpayer funds for the achievement of outcomes. We know, internally, many of us who have had experience with Whānau Ora, that this happens. But we will further demonstrate how this happens by better use of data, by better data planning, and by improving and supporting the workforce that works in the space of Whānau Ora. It’s a wonderful space. We’ve seen many providers and navigators thrive in the space but, more importantly, help those whānau who are facing some serious challenges achieve better outcomes for their whānau—for the individuals and the whānau—and also, fortunately, in Whānau Ora 2.0, aligned with some of the targets that we have as a Government.

I’m just wanting to follow on from my colleague speaking about the release today on the state of te reo Māori and the insights that were garnered in the report released today, which really delved, I guess, into the growth of te reo Māori in this wonderful nation of Aotearoa and the wider acceptance of the way that te reo Māori is a part of our language, culture, and heritage—our shared language, culture, and heritage—and the fact that the Government plays a key role in helping to resource it, both in adhering to its Te Tiriti obligations and also as an organisation, to help those that are within the sector and community to thrive.

In the insights that were shared, there is a wider appreciation by non-Māori within Aotearoa of fluent speakers of te reo, also the beauty of the language—an appreciation of that—and an acceptance that the speaking of te reo Māori within our public places and workspaces is a good thing. Further, the report also talked about some of the insights by way of signage, of normalisation of te reo Māori—these things that, for us in te ao Māori, we’ve taken for granted and that wider Aotearoa New Zealanders are appreciating all the same.

My question for the Minister is: we are seeing, from the feedback that is coming in through this study, that te reo Māori is something that is valued—it is based on, of course, the Te Tiriti obligation and that it is the indigenous language of Aotearoa—and we have Māori media as a central pillar of the growth and sustainability of te reo, but also we have the Crown and community obligations and the need to flourish and thrive. What is the long-term strategy that the Minister views or has in place to continue to grow this movement and the beauty of te reo Māori and the normalisation of it, as is the call of our Māori Language Commissioner today? What are those tangible long-term strategies and the resource that we will see come through to strengthen the adoption and use and normalisation of te reo Māori in Aotearoa New Zealand?

Just following up on that—and we’re just about out of time—I wouldn’t mind getting something back in terms of the strategy, particularly in terms of the funding strategy, given that we’ve got zero returns in that broadcasting area.

Also, can I ask the Minister for Māori Development, in terms of the tribunal, for an update on where we are with the tribunal, if he’s able to give us that, in particular, one, obviously, in terms of funding, but is there a future, given that we have a clear agenda again—I’m talking about the Waitangi Tribunal—by members of the coalition Government? It seems to shut down the tribunal. Is the Minister able to give us a quick update in that area on any plans he might have in that area? Appreciating that he’s got a review taking place, what are the next steps in that area?

Just coming back to the broadcasting side of things, adding to what Hūhana Lyndon was saying: is there a plan from the Crown? I have heard the Minister talk about private investment, but are we still looking at possible top-ups in terms of Māori television, Māori radio over the next—well, hopefully next year is last year anyway, but in next year’s Budget? Is there a plan in terms of Māori broadcasting?

I’ll leave the last couple of minutes—if perhaps the Minister could respond, particularly in that tribunal area.

Thank you. Just quickly in response to the variety of questions, and some comments that were looking for a question, this Government has given the single largest announcement of support for Te Matatini ever. We’ve also continued to support Te Māori as a kaupapa—Te Māori Manaaki trust—and I look forward to doing things in that space in the near future. Hundreds of millions of dollars continue to be invested in reo Māori education, whether or not that’s early childhood, primary, secondary, or tertiary education, and also various other initiatives like Puanga mā Matariki and other celebrations throughout the motu.

There also continues to be over $100 million invested through Māori language entities for the promotion of te reo. No, the Crown is not solely responsible for the survival and thriving of te reo Māori. It has a very important part to play and, obviously, a Tiriti or Treaty obligation to adequately protect this iconic taonga. Te reo Māori is in the DNA of our country—past, present, and future—and will continue to be so, no matter who the Government is.

There was a question in relation to the Waitangi Tribunal. That process of reviewing the Treaty of Waitangi Act is under way with the advisory group, who people know about—David Cochrane, Bruce Gray, Dion Tuuta, and Kararaina Calcott-Cribb. I look forward to getting further updates from them in the near course.

I move, That the committee report progress and sit again presently.

Motion agreed to.

Progress to be reported.

House resumed.

The committee has considered the Appropriation (2025/26 Estimates) Bill and reports it has made progress on the bill. I move, That the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report adopted.

Sitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)