Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill

Mālō e lelei, Madam Speaker. I stand to speak to the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill. I would like to begin by congratulating the member Stuart Smith of Kaikōura, for getting his bill pulled from the ballot box and for having such a good bill that ACT are really looking forward to supporting it along its journey.

I note that I may be speech number three, but we already have one of the chardonnay socialists from across the other side of the House agree with the bill, and, hopefully, we’ll get more on board with this one, the cellar door tasting bill. You know, this is about where multiple bottles of wine are opened for shot tasting, usually at about 30 millilitres per shot, and they hope that they can sell enough to be able to compensate for the free tasting. Being a consumer, I was initially confused with the debate that was had the other day about on-licence and off-licence requirements. As a consumer, you know, I just rock on up to the wineries and go about having the tasting without really thinking about what effect it may have on cost for those wineries. As Stuart Smith had actually pointed out, there’s over 600 small wineries around New Zealand. In fact, I think he even went about to tell us there were 28 within electorates that obviously need supporting, and I thought that was very well done. Stuart Smith actually gave MPs a big list of all of those electorates, and I think that those that operate their businesses would appreciate that he’s actually pointed out, to the members that they represent, who they are.

I’d never actually thought about the legal requirements of the winery at the cellar door and the licensing requirements and on-licences that were needed for the sale and consumption of alcohol on premises. So that’s for hotels, it’s for pubs, nightclubs, and restaurants—they all have the on-licence. But an off-licence is for selling for the consumption at a different place. So that’s where the bottle shops, the supermarkets, and the grocery stores come in. So, I could see the confusion when we were looking at what’s actually happening at the cellar-door wine tasting experiences. The wineries need an off-licence to sell their wine to consumers in order to take them home and they give away their wine in those 30 millilitre lots for tasting because they don’t have an on-licence in which to sell it. Further to that, it appears that the off-licence is only available under limited circumstances, with certain requirements needing to be met. I got confused just trying to get my head around what those requirements were and when you need the on-licence, when you need the off-licence, and what cancels one or the other out. So good on you, Stuart Smith, for looking to cut the red tape and the regulation, and for looking to bring back common sense for small businesses. Good on you also, Stuart Smith, for looking at ways to cut the financial waste from those small to medium enterprises’ pockets, because ACT can also support that too.

We’ve heard from the member that the wine growers have a $2.41 billion industry. This is substantial. How do we help it to grow? We support the businesses to grow it. Wine is New Zealand’s sixth-largest export product, after all. So ACT agrees with the member’s bill where he defines samples as needing to be at 40 millilitres. It means there are 18 samples out of a 750 millilitre bottle, and charging for those samples will help the SMEs—or small to medium sized enterprises—to recoup their expenses. Good host responsibility is an essential part of any alcohol bill, and it’s there within this bill. The person serving these tests or tastings still need to be a duty manager and they still need to abide by the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act.

Again, with over 600 small wineries around New Zealand, many of which have been hit with the adverse weather events, this is a good way of being able to support them to boost their business. But there is one aspect that I’ve already been lobbied about, and it’s whether or not we could bring certain distilleries or craft breweries into this as well for wine tasting. Perhaps that’s an aspect that we could speak about at the Justice Committee table. So we support this bill and we thank Stuart Smith for looking at ways to cut red tape and support our businesses so they too can thrive in New Zealand. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. It’s a pleasure to take a call on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill. Can I begin by congratulating my neighbour from across the hill in the mighty Marlborough winemaking region. So congratulations to Stuart Smith, and it’s been a pleasure to engage with you, Stuart Smith, around this bill. I’ll definitely be supporting this bill to go through to select committee and probably further than that. My view is that any of us who have wineries in our electorates or our region should be taking a good look at the benefits that this bill will bring, and I’m going to talk to those in a moment.

In the Nelson region, we have around 150 years of winemaking in our region, and I know people will often talk particularly about Marlborough and about Hawke’s Bay, but I’m very proud of the work of a number of our businesses. Now, my colleague Damien O’Connor will probably call me out for claiming some of the wineries that are actually in his electorate, not mine, but I like to claim them. There are a couple close to me—Waimea Estate—that have provided wine into the region for a very long time, and our region is known for the pinot noir that you can find out at Neudorf, made beautifully by the wonderful team there, Tim and Judy and Rosie Finn. But my favourite are our aromatics, and probably the top wine in Nelson—if I was going to choose one, and it’s very risky to do this—would have to be the Seifried gewürztraminer; it is a fantastic drop. So if you haven’t tried that one, I do encourage you to do that.

But just to the bill—to the bill. Where I’m going with this is that in Marlborough and in Nelson, we have a number of cellar doors that operate and trails where people can cycle around and visit the vineyards, visit the hops in my region as well and have samples. So it’s very well marketed in Marlborough, and you often see, when you’re driving around Blenheim, people biking from vineyard to vineyard, and it’s an important part of the tourism experience in the top of the South Island to do that, and in other parts of the country.

I’ve had representation made to me about supporting this bill from winemakers who’ve come to see me at the Saturday market. The specific issue they’ve raised with me is that it’s very difficult for them when people come and they’ve biked from one vineyard to the next and, essentially, are getting wine for free. They feel quite uncomfortable doing that, both from a business point of view but also from a host responsibility and a harm reduction point of view.

They’ve raised with me the harm reduction issues of, essentially, just providing sample after sample after sample and that, actually, if people were required to pay for that sample, which is what used to happen—so back in the day, it used to be quite straightforward to go to a vineyard that had an off-licence and have a sample and pay for it, and that should be the expectation. If you’re having something from a business that is alcohol, you should be paying for it. I personally feel very uncomfortable that people are able just to go in and have a small wine sort of for free. I don’t think that’s right.

So that is the main reason why I’m supporting this bill, why I encourage other members to support this bill. It makes sense to me, from both a business perspective, but, more importantly, from a harm reduction perspective. I’m sure there will be some things that need to be ironed out in select committee. That’s what the process of select committee is for.

The previous speaker, Nicole McKee, I think made a very good outline of all the ins and outs of how on- and off-licences work, and I’m not going to repeat all of that, but it is confusing for people, and I think that what we can do with these bills is actually work through to try to get less confusion, so that it’s more clear what people need.

But we want people to be coming back to New Zealand as tourists and visiting regions like Marlborough, like the good region of Nelson Tasman, the sunniest region in New Zealand—always a controversial thing to say in the House.

💬 Glen Bennett: Very.

You’ve been stealing our sundial, I think, Mr Bennett, or perhaps someone from Marlborough has been. But it’s an excellent bill, I think. I appreciate the representations made to me by vineyards. I’m happy to hear from them further about things that could help improve the bill, and I commend it to the House.

E te Māngai, tēnā koe. Tēnā koutou e te Whare. As is custom, I just wanted to shout out to the member in charge of this bill for the luck of the ballot, the luck of the draw, as it were, and having the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill drawn.

Just to cut through the suspense, the Greens will be supporting this bill, and to outline why that is—it’s been incredibly frustrating over the past few years, in this place, as we’ve debated a number of pieces of law on liquor and alcohol regulation. Frequently we are operating in false absolutes when we are debating that. The Greens are consistent. I’d argue that we are the only party that is consistent on drug regulation in this country. Because, just to actually unpack some of the sentiments that were outlined by my ACT Party colleague Nicole McKee around kind of red tape and the operation of those who operate within markets, when you’re talking about substances, whether those substances are alcohol, cannabis, tobacco, or otherwise, you have a spectrum of regulatory approaches. At one extreme you have criminal prohibition and at the other extreme you have a complete legal, unregulated free market. At both ends of those extremes you end up with the maximisation of harm because, whether it is criminal entities or commercial entities, in those environments and markets—whether they are legal or the black market—you are incentivised to exploit vulnerable communities to shift as much of your product as is possible to make a quick buck. So we pull away from those extremes through a process of sensible regulation.

The things that this bill does is, firstly, allowing wineries to charge for samples without getting a separate on-licence—so they already have that licence. And the second is fixing an anomaly, and that’s a really important point to make, that this is an anomaly that exists within the law which means that wineries with restaurants currently have to create a new business for their cellar doors in order to obtain an off-licence by adding a new category for on-licences available to wineries holding an on-licence. I’ve heard from other members that there has been lobbying with regards to the potential expansion of this to other alcohol trading businesses and I’d just actually like to make the point, as expressed by my Labour colleague Rachel Boyack, around how, actually, when you are looking at interventions with regard to how to reduce harm for certain substances one of the main mechanisms that we have available to us is pricing. So that’s perhaps one of the fascinating ironies in this proposed bill, is that we actually have a potential for reduction of harm through the ability to charge for these samples. I would just love to see some more logical consistency from the National Party on that point in particular.

But prima facie this is quite a straightforward, quite a simple, and quite a sensible piece of law. I’m not going to pretend it’s going to change the world with regard to harm reduction and it’s definitely a bit of a long bow to propose that that is the case. But none the less, I’m looking forward to those submissions at select committee.

As I do have the floor, I would like to make the point again that I would implore all members to have some logical consistency when it comes to approach to substances on these issues of harm reduction, because we have the ability to disempower that black market where, in the words of the ACT Party member, actually no red tape exists. Drug dealers do not check ID, they will up-sell young people to ever more harmful substances, and in that black market we have unknown people consuming unknown substances to unknown consequences and no ability to intervene in that potentially problematic use. So the best way to ensure that we reduce that harm is through sensible regulation. And to that effect I’d say that we’re well overdue for some meaningful investigation of whether our sale and supply of alcohol laws are actually living up to what they say on the tin.

But the Greens support this. I’m looking forward to watching it progress through the House and select committee process, and encourage all to submit at the select committee.

Kia orana, Madam Speaker. It’s a pleasure to take what will be a brief call on this bill, and in doing so can I acknowledge the member who has had the luck of the draw, Stuart Smith, in having this bill drawn in and for bringing it to the House. On this side of the House, we are treating this as a matter of conscience. However, I can inform the House that I intend to support the member’s bill through first reading, and probably likely beyond that.

In Palmerston North, we do not have any wineries within the electorate; as Mr McKelvie and Mr Tuiono will know, the closest one is actually in the Pohangina Valley and has been for quite some time. It doesn’t mean, however, that Palmerston North is boring for its lack of wineries. In fact, I think at many of the cafes in Palmerston North you would find Mr Smith’s electric wines on the menu, and I’m sure if you looked hard enough you’d probably even find a Spanish wine there as well.

The point of this particular bill is that it does allow for a little bit more consistency and some ease when it comes to those establishments and locations that are effectively identified or defined as a cellar door operation, and that the bill also identifies a definitional aspect around that as well. But it also does permit the payment of some money in exchange for sample consumption. So this is just one element that I think makes a lot of sense, it’ll obviously go to select committee if it clears the hurdle today. But many of these establishments do have a restaurant or cafe on site, and it just makes logical sense to tidy up this anomaly. I am happy to support this past first reading.

I’d better fill the gap, Madam Speaker. It’s a pleasure to take a call on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill in the name of my colleague Stuart Smith. As the last speaker—the previous speaker Tangi Utikere—said, we in the Manawatū struggle a little bit for our wine, and if I ever need advice I go straight to Stuart Smith and he sorts it out for me.

I wouldn’t, however, refer to wine as a substance. I think it’s much more of a tonic or a food or whatever, but certainly not a substance. I think that to refer to wine as a substance is almost an insult to the winery. As the previous speaker said, in the Rangitīkei, we have actually—[Bell rung]

ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean): Oh sorry, no—wrong button. Carry on—carry on.

Can I keep going, Madam Speaker—can you give me another minute? Give me another minute!

In the Rangitīkei, in my time in Parliament, we’ve had three very small wineries operating, and I think there’s probably about one and a bit left now. There’s a very good reason for that: we grow great meat in the Rangitīkei. I suppose, when you think about the wine trails of Marlborough and Hawke’s Bay, in particular—and probably Nelson and Waipara and Canterbury—we could well have a meat trail in the Rangitīkei. I mean, I think that’s something that I might think about when I leave this place in a few weeks’ time—I could start up a new kind of business.

But I think that the real point of this is that wine is certainly a very successful industry in New Zealand, but it has a different cause, I guess, in that it’s a very good tourist attraction. I liken it in some ways to the thoroughbred industry, because if you think about the thoroughbred industry around the world, horses are an attraction for people to travel round the world. Wine has the same impact, and to allow people to travel through those wine trails—I’m no expert on this, as you can tell, but I’m an expert on taking Stuart Smith’s advice. To allow people to travel through those regions and sample wine at various establishments is very sensible, but the issue with this bill—and it corrects an anomaly, as Chlöe Swarbrick so eloquently put it. It corrects an anomaly in the law which enables those cellar doors to, effectively, charge people for those samples that they’re taking.

Now, some of us had the opportunity to travel to South America a little while ago, and, of course, Chile and Argentina, particularly, are very large wine producers. Chile is a huge wine producer, and we had the opportunity to go and visit one of these cellar doors in Chile. They had a—

💬 Hon Member: Terrible!

There was very good meat there, actually, so that’s another point in my favour—very good meat there. But the interesting thing about it was that they were charging for samples. They had a cover charge at the start, and then they charged you for any extra samples you took, so the opportunity was there in that country for it to work very well. So I’m pleased to see support right round the House for this bill. It’s very sensible.

The other point I wanted to make is that this is yet another alcohol bill coming through the House to amend a piece of the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act, which points clearly to the fact that this whole area needs to be reviewed. I think this is the third bill we’ve had in the House in the last few weeks with respect of the sale and supply of alcohol, and for us to continue to have to put these bills through the House without having an opportunity to review in its entirety the Act in New Zealand, then I think it just points strongly to the fact that we need to review that.

Another interesting point was made earlier that when you go round, even some of our wineries are producing gin sampling and all sorts of things like that. In fact, in the Wairarapa, there is a winery that also makes very good gin, and I think that the opportunity for this kind of tourism industry in New Zealand is significant. As I think one of the earlier speakers referred to, it also refers to our small breweries, our small gin operators, and we’ve even got some pretty good whisky made in New Zealand nowadays, which is a huge improvement on what used to come out of your area, Madam Assistant Speaker Dean, actually, many years ago. It was pretty average—you had to pour it into a Johnnie Walker bottle to be able to drink it. Anyway, I won’t refer to its name, but that’s as true as I stand here.

So I’ve got no problems with supporting this bill. I think it’s a very good little piece of legislation. It’s exactly the reason we have members’ bills coming through this House, and I think that to get a bill drawn that actually changes something that will make a significant difference to a very important industry in New Zealand is pretty important. I congratulate Stuart Smith on that, and I also welcome the support right around the House for this bill.

Well, thank you, Madam Speaker. It appears no other Labour speakers want to take a call, so I will round things up and thank all those members for their support. I also acknowledge those members within the Labour caucus that are treating this as a conscience matter. It quite rightly should be a conscience matter if people feel that way. We don’t feel that way within the National Party, on this particular bill anyway, but I do acknowledge their right to have their view.

I think it’s been highlighted quite well—Rachel Boyack, my neighbour from across the hill, very proudly spoke about the wineries that are within her electorate. I think that is what the wine industry has on its side, that, actually, those small businesses—and sometimes large—bring an extra thing or an extra colour to their tourism offering, and a great part of the community. I think this bill goes a long way to helping those businesses operate within the law but in a much more simple way.

I take Chlöe Swarbrick’s point about alcohol and the laws around that, but I also thank her for her support. As she quite rightly knows, she’s got a number of cellar doors in her electorate, on Waiheke Island, and as most of the members will know—who read their email, anyway—the number of electorates that have wineries within them is quite surprising. I was surprised at the extent of that.

So I’ll take no more time from the House, but I do thank everyone for their support, and I commend the bill to the House.

Members, I have determined that the subject of this vote will be treated as a conscience issue. In this case, I know that there are members who want a personal vote, and I am prepared to accept one. So this is the process that we’re going to follow: I’m going to put the question, you will vote, I will then announce the result, and at that stage any member can ask for a personal vote.

The question is, That the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.

Motion agreed to.

Bill referred to the Justice Committee.