Grocery Industry Competition Bill

Members, we come now to Part 5. This is the debate on clauses 160 to 190 and the miscellaneous provisions. The question is that Part 5 stand part.

Thank you, Madam Chair. It’s been an exciting night, hasn’t it? I referred to this clause 160 before, at the start of the debate—I actually referenced it back to the functions, but I’ll take it up again: the appointment of a grocery commissioner. One of the things about this: you can write wonderful legislation with all the best intent, but the reality is, like all industries, the grocery trade is a dynamic industry that will be changing, evolving, hopefully for the better but sometimes it may be for the worse—we don’t know. But whatever the case is, to be effective this legislation relies on having a grocery commissioner with the requisite skills to do the job. In my personal view, and it’s something that National’s made very clear, without a commissioner with the requisite skills and ability to robustly go and do his or her job, then all of this good work in this bill is unlikely to result in substantial change.

So my central point to the Minister in the chair, Duncan Webb, is: what assurance can he give the committee that the appointment of the commissioner will be to ensure that that person has an in-depth, relevant market knowledge of the grocery sector? I don’t intend it to be an offence or anything, but to not make sure that that person gets appointed with other skills, such as because they might be a very good lawyer or whatever—because I think the importance of this role particularly is to have the understanding of the sector and the way it operates, and it is a large, complex sector. So can the Minister give assurance to the committee that in appointing the commissioner—and it will be for him to make the recommendation—such a person will be appointed and we don’t end up with someone who doesn’t have those requisite skills?

Yes.

Well, I don’t think that was a very satisfactory answer in regards to the assurances around the point, because clause 161(2) actually articulates—as my colleague Andrew Bayly referred to—the type of experiences that this individual will have. And it says quite clearly in this clause that “by virtue of that person’s knowledge of, or experience in, the grocery industry”—which I don’t think anyone would argue, and I think that was your point, Mr Andrew Bayly, that that would be appropriate. But it then goes on “or”—and the old “or” word is always the “get out of jail” word, isn’t it: “or any other industry”. So there you go, Andrew. That doesn’t sound like the grocery industry, does it, because it says “or any other”. So you could be a jack of all trades but no expert in grocery and get this wrong.

It goes on: “commerce, economics, law”—

💬 Andrew Bayly: Law.

—law—

💬 Andrew Bayly: Accountancy.

—“accountancy, public administration, or consumer affairs.” So I think it’s reasonable to ask the Minister to articulate with a little bit more than a single word the assurance around why that clause in particular is going to ensure that the individual undertaking this—which is, as we’ve been through this evening and traversed the elements, a complex aspect of legislation. There is a huge number of areas and responsibilities that will be placed on this. They will be dealing with three significant entities of scale. So capability and competence in terms of being able to undertake the role with a degree of efficiency and effectiveness will be paramount.

So the risk, which I don’t think is unduly underestimated by this side of the House, is that it’s a lovely bill but the individual may not have the capability and competence based on the criteria articulated at clause 161(2) to actually be able to fulfil the scope of the role in a way in which will provide confidence (1) particularly to the Minister, other than the individual Minister’s opinion, but (2) to the broader public, of which this commissioner’s role is going to provide a public service in terms of building trust and confidence that we do have the appropriate level of competition within this important industry.

To expand: absolutely yes. But, look, no, it’s a fair point. The Grocery Commissioner is a critical part of the infrastructure of this bill. This is a role which, obviously, will exist for a while. And it is important that we find someone who brings both the courage and determination as well as the right set of skills.

Now, I think the extensive list that Mr Watts referred to is there for a reason, and that is because we don’t want to constrain ourselves. We absolutely want the best person for this job; whether it be an accountant, even, or someone else who’s well versed in the area of grocery reforms. It’s important to recognise that the key requirement is that they are equipped to discharge their functions and powers and assist in achieving the purposes of this bill. The purposes of this bill are to enhance consumer outcomes or, to put it basically in simple terms, put money back in ordinary New Zealanders’ pockets so they can get a better deal at the checkout. That’s why we are here tonight.

So this Grocery Commissioner is absolutely a critical part of the infrastructure who needs to be both responsible in exercising the powers that are given to him or her, but also to be courageous and brave and exercise them where necessary, because what we’ve seen to date is that the system is broken, that we have monopoly profits—profits which are fundamentally taken from consumers and put into the pockets of big business, and that’s not right.

So the search for this Grocery Commissioner—as I’m sure Mr Bayly knows—is under way, because when this bill passes, we want to see it up and running as soon as possible. I’m confident that we will be able to recruit someone who’s not only got the technical skills but also the passion for doing what’s right by New Zealanders, because that’s what this bill is actually about.

So in terms of the skills necessary and Mr Watt’s point—exactly what those might be of that list or what mix, I don’t know. But this person will be a commerce commissioner, and that’s really important. They sit alongside in an organisation, with a set of skills so that they can have the peers to understand the competition and learn from them and be supported by them as well. So that is also a really important part of it. And sitting in the Commerce Commission, which has, of course, generated this market study where this came from, is a really important point.

So in terms of the point: are we going to get a good Grocery Commissioner? I’m absolutely confident that we will because that is the very critical foundation upon which the implementation of this—and should further regulations or tweaks to the grocery supply code be necessary, that will be an important part of that as well. But, fundamentally, this person will be implementing a policy of fairer prices at the supermarkets, and that’s the most important thing.

Members, the time has come for me to report progress.

Progress to be reported.