Children and Young People’s Commission Bill

on behalf of the Minister for Social Development and Employment: I move, That the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill and the Children and Young People’s Commission Bill be now read a third time.

This speech was written by the Hon Carmel Sepuloni who, unfortunately, cannot be here today, so I am delivering it on her behalf.

It’s been a long journey to get us here, but today we are finally able to put in legislation a stronger, more effective system of oversight to protect our children and young people. I want to start by thanking all of the children and young people who have provided input into this throughout the process. I want to thank our stakeholders for their strong advocacy and for working together to make changes that have improved the bills. To our officials, for working over several years to develop this legislation, thank you all. To our select committee, I want to thank them for their time and hard work on this legislation.

This journey started back in 2017 and really kicked off after the Beatie report in 2018 highlighted how inadequate our system of oversight really was. There wasn’t enough accountability. Our children and young people didn’t know where to go for help, and it needed fixing. Since then, we sought advice from stakeholders and from across Government. A number of huis were held across the country and we heard from children, young people, and whānau what the issues were and what they needed in an oversight system. As a Government, we traversed a significant number of options. Some of the proposals in the bills are different to what we have now and some are different to what stakeholders want. But what I do know is that we are all working towards the same goal. We all want our children and young people to be safe and well and cared for, and these bills will help us achieve that.

In order for us to have an effective oversight system, there are several things we need. Firstly, we need a loud and strong advocate not afraid to call out Government and the systems we have in place; an advocate that will have the flexibility, diversity, and mana to genuinely speak for our children and young people. The Children and Young People’s Commission Bill makes this happen by establishing the Children and Young People’s Commission. Some stakeholders have raised concerns about this and that it could diminish the power of the Children’s Commissioner, but this is simply not the case. This bill adds to the power of the Children’s Commissioner so that they have more voices at the table. The commission will be required to have input from a kaupapa Māori perspective and there will be the opportunity for other voices to have a seat at the table, like Pacific and disabilities, as well as care-experienced young people themselves. However, we heard the sector when they said that we needed to retain a Chief Children’s Commissioner, and that’s what we’ve done. This bill further adds to their power by increasing the information-access powers they have in order to inquire into system-wide issues. I am looking forward to seeing a more diverse and empowered Children and Young People’s Commission.

The second component of an effective oversight system is an accessible and dynamic complaints system. We heard from children and young people that they didn’t know where to take their complaints. The Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill places a requirement on the Ombudsman to ensure that complaints processes are visible and accessible for children and young people and their families, whānau, hapū, and iwi. On top of that, children and young people also said the complaints process needs to be timely and action-oriented for children and young people to have confidence and trust in them and to use them. This bill enables the Ombudsman to undertake preliminary inquiries to ensure that matters are able to be resolved at the earliest opportunity possible as a means of supporting timely processes for children and young people.

Finally, we need an independent monitor to oversee the system and ensure that the horrors of abuse that occurred in our history never happen again. This bill makes it a legal requirement for the monitor to act independently and makes it unlawful for the Government or anyone else to interfere with their monitoring. We know some stakeholders want the monitoring to be in a Crown entity, and, in particular, to be with the Children’s Commissioner. However, we heard during hui across the country concerns about monitoring sitting in conflict with advocacy. The monitor will provide objective and impartial information to Parliament, the public, and to Ministers on the performance of the system to support decisions that improve performance of the Oranga Tamariki system; whereas the role of the advocate is to question whether the settings are right in the first place. In response to consultation on the long-term home of the monitor, the Office of the Children’s Commission even stated—and I quote—“We do however agree that the advocacy function may conflict with the policy intent as currently stated to be an adviser to the Minister.”

Underpinning these three elements, we need a foundation of upholding Te Tiriti and the wellbeing and inputs of our tamariki and a rangatahi. The bills’ Treaty provisions were carefully crafted with advice from Te Kāhui, who supported the Ministry of Social Development’s consultation with Māori across the country. The bills create obligations on the oversight bodies to uphold Te Tiriti o Waitangi. The specific clauses in the bills directly emerged from key Māori stakeholders who called for specific obligations to be placed on the oversight bodies, rather than broad Treaty of Waitangi clauses that can be open to interpretation and run the risk of diluting the obligations on agencies.

The rights and voices of children and young people have underscored the development of the bills. Not only have the insights of children and young people shaped specific policies, giving practical effect to these concepts has been an objective in the development of the bills.

Through our Supplementary Order Paper (SOP), we included even more specific, more explicit provisions, following discussions with stakeholders, by providing for the best interests in participation of children and young people. We also supported the change put forward by the Greens in their SOP to ensure the voices of children and young people are a part of the work of the independent monitor, and I want to thank them for putting the suggestion forward.

On top of that, we also heard from our young people. I want to explicitly thank VOYCE for their contribution here that waiting five years before a review is required to start is a long time in the life of a child, and that’s why we reduced this three years, so that we can review the system and make changes, if needed, sooner.

I know that those on the other side of the House don’t support these bills, but I want to say to them that our children and young people shouldn’t have to wait any longer for a proper oversight system. These bills will put in place a system that will help ensure that we can avoid the errors of the past and make a positive difference for our children and young people.

Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to table this legislative statement.

ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie): Leave is requested for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none.

💬 Harete Hipango: Mr Speaker?

ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie): Just you’d need to present the legislative statement. Can the Minister just—thank you. You just need to request—“I present a legislative statement on the two bills.” Then it’s done properly.

I present this legislative statement.

ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie): On? Can you just do the whole thing; sorry.

For the third reading of the—

ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie): On the Oversight of the Oranga—

—on the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill and the Children and Young People’s Commission Bill.

ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie): Thank you. Those legislative statements are published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. The question is that the motion be agreed to.

I take this call on behalf of the National Party and as spokesperson for children in Oranga Tamariki and also as a voice representative of the very children who have lived in abused care, have experience of the very submitters in this child-care and welfare protection sector whose voices were lifted in volume at select committee and have been extinguished. I rise, I take this call, and I make this stand against this Government where a legislative statement has been delivered, where that statement and the expressions articulated on behalf of the Minister convey how disconnected, how detached, and how dysfunctional this Government is—extinguishing the voice, the faces, and the views of the people who’ve been most affected by the State welfare ill-care system. I take this call in dismay, in despair, and in disgust of this Government and how this Government has dispensed with the voices and the views of those who have lived in State-abused welfare care and have the experience that was shared with, and expressed to, this Government.

In speaking to the two bills now, originally presented as one, now divided, which is quite depictive and representative, actually, of the Government stance that has been taken in terms of the divisiveness that has been created by this bill now divided into two parts, the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill and the Children and Young People’s Commission Bill, I say that this depicts the fact that one bill divided into two is representative of how this Government has dismissed, dispensed with, and treated not only the submitters to the bill but public opinion. There’s a sense of divide, conquer, and this being a done deal, as I’ve always stated, where the Government went through the pretence and the facade of consulting and engaging with our public.

I heard the Minister speak to the written statement in saying that this has been a long journey since 2017. The Government’s dismissed, dispensed with the life-long journey of the victims and survivors, those abused in the State ill-care welfare system. There is a royal commission of inquiry that commenced in February 2018, is due to conclude in June 2023, and it was always stated at select committee by my colleagues in the National Party, my parliamentary colleagues in the Green and the ACT Party in opposition—and for the Minister, in reading the legislative statement to say that not just those on the other side of the House don’t support this bill or these two bills, I remind the Minister and the Government, actually, that the opposition comes from the New Zealand public who have been dismissed. There is so much to cover that time will not indulge and other members will address that, but it is important that I talk about this bill being divided into two.

What happened to the Government taking heed of what public opinion and voice is, which is called democracy? And so it is important—important to stress and emphasise that the Office of the Children’s Commission and the Commissioner made submissions to the select committee. Totally dispensed with and ignored. And I quote “That democracy, how can we trust our democratic process when people’s voices are ignored?” That is a quote from the Commissioner for Children, Judge Frances Eivers, the advocate, the face, the voice, the representation of New Zealand children’s State, in care, welfare experienced voices.

I also quote, as having been mentioned at the second reading, when I stood to say, “Take care of our children. Take care of what they hear, take care of what they see, take care of what they feel, for how the children grow, so what will be the shape of Aotearoa.”—Dame Whina Cooper. This Government has totally ignored the voice and the view of our children. And how disconnected, how misrepresented to say that this Government has engaged and listened to the voices of our children when the very advocacy group and representative voice for children, VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai, voices of young, in-care experienced, were not consulted with by this Government at the crucial stages. They lifted their voice and raised that at select committee and attempted to—to have that just quelled and extinguished.

What’s interesting also, again, is another quote from the Prime Minister, in the Speech from the Throne on 8 November 2017, a commitment: “This Government will put child poverty at the heart of Government policy development.” There’s a poverty of spirit from this Government to ignore and extinguish the voice and the views of our children, their interests, their concerns which have not been centred at the heart of these two bills. Again, I quote the Prime Minister: “To deliver genuine change for children, transparent mechanisms are needed to hold the Government to account”. Every effort from Opposition, importantly from our New Zealand public and those voicing the concerns of our New Zealand children and State welfare care, ill care, those who’ve been abused—transparent mechanisms? I think not. I quote again from the Prime Minister: “If we put child well-being at the heart of what we do, then the well-being of all New Zealanders will be lifted.”

Again, I reiterate that this Government has ignored the views of child representatives of the social child-care and protection sector, of specialist psychologists who work in child welfare, legal practitioners, former social workers who have left Oranga Tamariki because of the dismay, the despair, the disgust at what’s happening within the organisation and the fact that this Government thinks that this oversight, which totally overlooks the importance of those who are experienced in this specialised area of care and protection—lawyers, the New Zealand Family Law Society, legal academics, former police, youth justice, youth aid officers, social sector agencies, health practitioners, teachers. However, this Government knows better and best than anybody.

Democracy is meant to be about listening to the power and the voices of the people. New Zealanders, in particular those who have worked in this sector—the fact is that those very persons are giving evidence before the royal commission of inquiry, which this Government has totally dispensed with and said “It’s not relevant; we will pick up the pieces later.” Yesterday, the chief executive of Oranga Tamariki gave evidence, continued that today. There was a total of some 43 witnesses in this oversight, care and protection system, which this Government for some reason has turned a blind eye and a deep ear to, in listening to the power, the significance, the relevance, and the importance of their evidence to say to this Government: take heed, take heart.

The interesting factor is that the royal commission of inquiry is listening to and striving to make recommendations after hearing evidence for some three to four years based on the lived experience of survivors and victims. I turn to my parliamentary colleague, Karen Chhour. We spoke briefly before I gave this address to the House, and I sensed—[Time expired].

Fakaalofa lahi atu, Mr Speaker. As always, it’s a privilege and an honour to take a call in this House of change, not only as the member of Parliament for the beautiful Ōtaki electorate but also as part of the Social Services and Community Committee who worked through this bill. But of course, first, I’d like to acknowledge again the submitters for being so raw and passionate, giving up their stories and experiences, which we know must have been really hard. I know I truly felt that, and I’m quite sure everyone in the Social Services and Community Committee felt that as well.

Changes from that select committee process, after hearing the submitters, also included—as the Minister spoke about before—a Chief Children’s Commissioner, who will also be the chair of the board of the commission. That is a change that this bill has made after listening to the submitters. Also, ensuring the commission can report to the Prime Minister, with or without request, on matters affecting the rights of tamariki. That is another thing we heard from submitters—that the Minister and our Government have heard and have made that change. Requiring the monitor to act quickly and independently when undertaking functions, and that is something else we’ve made sure that we’ve changed in this bill after listening to those submitters. Also of note, because I know Te Tiriti has come up in this kōrero, during the development of this bill, there were 22 hui, so engagement with Māori throughout Aotearoa, and working closely with the Māori advisory group, Te Kāhui, on this bill to ensure a practical commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi—that’s critical. One of the things that was clear from this hui is Māori asked us to ensure advocacy won’t be diluted by the monitoring function, and they worried about the conflict between the advocacy and the monitoring—that was clear. That was their words, not mine.

We heard these concerns and therefore this bill separates these two functions to ensure advocacy is strengthened and not constrained by monitoring requirements. We’ve heard the calls to pause this bill, to wait for the outcome of the royal commission into State care. We can’t wait any longer. It’s not about putting on plasters and trying to plug gaps; this is about being brave and making sure—we all know this system doesn’t work. And to keep making sure that we put more plasters on a system that does not work is irresponsible. We came in here with a clear goal to save our babies, and that is what this bill does. We are very, very clear: we can’t keep putting plasters on this. The whole of Oranga Tamariki needs an overhaul. We’ve been brave enough to do that. We care about our babies. There is a review built into this bill so that when the royal commission outcome does come out, we can look at reviewing it then. But right now, we can’t have one more kid—we can’t have one more baby—being harmed. We need to do something now. The longer you wait, the more our children suffer. That’s what this side of the House wants to do. That’s what we’ve done. We’ve listened to those submitters, we’re making real change, and like I said: not one more baby.

There are not that many days that I rise in the House and struggle to—this bill is actually about children, and this is a bill that hasn’t been designed with them at the heart. That is the problem, and that is the fatal flaw with this piece of legislation. That is why every single party in this House except Labour vehemently and strongly opposes this piece of legislation: because, at the guts of it, it will not protect children. They are not at the heart of this bill. This is the submission from VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai, and the first thing they say is that their key concern is that tamariki are not at the heart of this bill. So I’m very deliberately bringing their voice today, because they are not represented. Their voice was not considered in the design of this bill, and this bill risks making it far worse for children in New Zealand.

I’ll tell you why: this bill creates a system that works for the system; it doesn’t work for the children, who should be at the heart of this. It’s more complicated. It’s more difficult for children to access. We now have three organisations instead of one. How does that serve children? It’s interesting because, in 2021, the new mental health commission was set up. Guess what? They decided they could do advocacy and monitoring and complaints. Why is it not good enough for our children? Why is it not good enough for children, who are the most vulnerable in New Zealand, to have a simple, easy-to-access system and an advocate and a contact and a person in the role of the Children’s Commissioner that they all know? But no, what have we done? We’ve made it incredibly complicated—well, they have; Labour has. They’ve made it incredibly complicated and separated out advocacy, monitoring, and complaints. And they think that’s going to solve the problem. But what does it actually do? It creates an even greater risk of children falling through the cracks. When we heard their voices in the select committee, it was harrowing—it was absolutely harrowing—and this bill does not serve them.

So the Minister thinks, well, she’s made a few changes. But then, when we tried to debate the changes in the committee of the whole House stage, “Oh, well, they’re not really changes. They’re not that substantial, and we didn’t need it to go back to the select committee to pore over it in more detail.”—which is what Opposition parties have called for. The Green motion on the floor today was to refer this bill back to the select committee, for the sake of our children, to get it right. There’s a willingness of every party in this House to do that. But, no, Labour knows best! They know better than the children that have experienced care! They know better than every single person who has fronted up to the royal commission into abuse in State care! They haven’t listened to them. They have not listened. I can’t believe the timing of it—that the chief executive of Oranga Tamariki was before the commission today and yesterday.

💬 Harete Hipango: How ironic.

Absolutely ironic. Appalling. Revolting. Disgusting. Because this piece of legislation does not do what it should do. When you come to this place, you have a responsibility particularly to those who can’t speak for themselves, and the most vulnerable in New Zealand are our children. The Government’s own Child and Youth Wellbeing Strategy 2019—one of the six key areas that they prioritised was that tamariki and rangatahi are being involved and empowered, meaning that they have their voices, perspectives, and opinions listened to and taken into account. Well, it’s a terrible day, actually, standing in the House knowing that Labour is steamrolling over their interests, their voices, their concerns.

So what else did VOYCE say in their submission? The second part was that they felt, as most other submitters have said, that separating advocacy from monitoring and complaints risks children falling between the cracks. Now, I don’t really think there’s anyone in this House who wants to see any one baby, any one child fall between the cracks. This was a real opportunity to get it right once and for ever. But, instead, what we are here—whether it’s academics, public policy experts—talking about is the fact that, for example, the independent monitor isn’t really independent, and the risk of it creating a cycle where there can be increased levels of abuse and the potential for that abuse to be swept under the carpet. Isn’t that what the whole royal commission into abuse in State care is all about? We heard submitter after submitter say, “Why isn’t the Government waiting? Why is it that Labour thinks they know better and that they are pre-determining any findings from the commission that sits today?”

So this is a fatally flawed bill, and that’s the guts of it. We want to see a single Children’s Commissioner that every child in New Zealand knows, can access, who is a fierce, fierce, fierce advocate for every child, but who also understands and has visibility of the complaints and the monitoring of the Oranga Tamariki system, so they have the view of everything, they can see exactly what’s going on, and that is why it is a layer of protection that means children won’t fall through the cracks. But, instead, Labour has ignored—of the over 400 people who submitted, only eight were in support. We heard from children’s advocates like Child Matters, the Save the Children organisation, Social Justice Aotearoa, those working at the front line, teachers, social workers, iwi leaders, former police officers—even a former leader of the Labour Party wrote a submission opposed to this bill because of his grave concern about it. Lawyers, judges, academics, public policy experts, former staff of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner—you would have thought, with a list like that, Labour would listen, but have they? No, they haven’t.

So it’s not a great day in Parliament today, because the Government isn’t listening to the very children and young people that this bill is meant to be supporting.

💬 Harete Hipango: It’s abuse of position.

It is. It’s an abuse of position instead of protecting children and young people.

I want to again use the words of VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai—they were set up when the original Ministry for Vulnerable Children, which is now Oranga Tamariki, was created. They were set up to make sure their voice, the voice of care-experienced young New Zealanders, was carried through so that we interrupt these years of abuse and mistreatment for those children. This is what they say: “Behold the breath of life. We ask all to listen and pay heed to the words of warning of the youth who strongly oppose the following bill, the Oversight of the Oranga Tamariki System and the Children and Young Persons Commission Bill.” That is the voice of VOYCE. They haven’t been listened to, they should have been, and this is a sad day for this Parliament.

Kia ora, e te Mana Whakawā. It’s a huge honour for me, as a registered social worker, to make a brief contribution on the third reading of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill and the Children and Young People’s Commission Bill. I would like to acknowledge the leadership of the Minister, Carmel Sepuloni, who shepherded these two bills which have been in the making since 2017. I want to acknowledge the children and young people, and their families, who have had negative experiences in this system. I want to further acknowledge those who chose to work in this system and will continue to do so.

I would like to acknowledge all the submitters who submitted on this bill. The Minister reminded us there was a need for loud voices to advocate, who are not afraid to call out the Government. This bill, the Children and Young People’s Commission Bill, makes this happen by establishing the Children and Young People’s Commission Bill. We heard at select committee from children and young people that they didn’t know where we are to take their complaints. The Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill places a requirement on the Ombudsman to ensure the complaints process is visible and accessible for children and young people, and their family, whānau, hapū, and iwi.

I stand here to commend this bill to the House based on my 30 years’ experience in the system as a youth justice social worker, a senior practitioner, a social work supervisor, a youth justice manager, a site manager, a regional manager, and in my role in chairing the Auckland Pacific Islands Network, APIN at Oranga Tamariki, where the workers developed the Pacific practice framework which the Saunoamali’i later came in and completed it, and named it Va’aifetū. Va’aifetū is a practical guide for integrating Pacific cultures into practice in pursuit of best outcomes for Pacific children through the system. I mention this so that the commissioners, who will have this honour, will know that there is there is a practice for Pacific people in Oranga Tamariki. I’m particularly proud of Mo’ui Fakalata, which I wrote with contributions from Loisi Puleiku, Simione Haleli, Sepa Hausia-Schaumkel, Loseti Mahe, Maria Fariu, and Leota Tahaafe and the members of the Tongan collective at the Auckland Pacific Island Network, who wrote this and gifted it, Mo’ui Fakalata, to the system so that Pacific children are served better. I believe, as what I’ve just stated, I am sufficiently qualified to affirm that this legislation will enhance and add value to how the State serves our children and young people, and their families. Without hesitation, I commend the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill and the Children and Young People’s Commission Bill to the House. Malo ‘aupito.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. It’s with great disappointment I rise to again express the Green Party’s strong opposition to the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill and the Children and Young People’s Commission Bill at this, their third reading. At the first reading, I quoted from a report released that day, Hāhā-uri, Hāhā-tea - Māori Involvement in State Care 1950-1999. In my second reading speech, I started with quotes from the interim report from the royal commission. Today, I’d like to start with quotes from survivors responding to evidence from Government agencies presenting to the royal commission over the last couple of weeks. And these agencies have been the Police, Education, Oranga Tamariki, the Ministry of Social Development (MSD), and Health. In front of the commission, they have acknowledged, though not apologised for, the harm done to children in care, the institutional racism, and a failure to protect children across our system.

The response to that conversation, from survivors, has been: from Tupua Urlich, he said, “If you were sincerely sorry you would start listening to the voices of those who have been through your system that you have abused, who are wanting to make a solid contribution and positive changes to the system.” Margaret Priest said that despite a commitment from Government agencies not to repeat the errors of the past, she had little confidence there was effective monitoring, oversight and safeguarding mechanism to ensure the safety of disabled people. Jonathan Mosen: “I’m not convinced that we’re going to see real, genuine, systemic change. I think a lot of it is window dressing.” And Keith Wiffin reminded us: “Bear in mind some of these officials have turned a blind eye, they’ve been in denial, they’ve swept things under the carpet, and there’s been a lot of resistance.”

These quotes and these agency hearings are relevant because, sadly, much of the officials’ time, and now the royal commission, has been spent justifying this bill, which they tell us will improve oversight and monitoring of our child protection system. But the response from Keith Wiffin, a survivor, to that was: “That is hugely disrespectful to survivors, because we don’t think that’s the case.” He went on to say, “You could have at least acknowledged the serious reservations we have about that because what you’re doing is essentially retaining power and control over the processes and asking us to trust you.” So because of a decision made by the lovely Labour Government, precious time that should have been about honestly fronting up to the past in detail and committing to working with survivors to prevent future abuses was spent again telling survivors that their concerns don’t matter, that the Government knows better.

I want to specifically mention an interaction with the CEO of the Ministry of Social Development. I rarely single out officials, but this is relevant to this bill and is on the public record, where the CEO of MSD was questioned about the long history of complaints against staff members in child protection units and was then presented with a list of perpetrators of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse spanning decades. Thousands of allegations, hundreds of complaints over the years, covering staff at multiple institutions. Her response was that the ministry has better policies in place to tackle complaints now. Does that sound familiar to this conversation? However, she was then confronted with allegations of a man still working in a youth justice facility, with 26 allegations of abuse against him, the earliest from 2006, including three upheld complaints. She characterised this as hugely unfortunate, when asked whether it was a major failing of the system. In response to more detail, she said that it’s complex because it’s an employment issue.

Now, this is the kind of thing that triggers survivors and their families. For so long, this House and the country have had people raising concerns about the practices of our so-called child protection services, and the response we’ve had from officials has been assurances that, actually, there’s nothing to see here. This was an aberration, a one-off event! It is not systemic! All we’ve been told: yes, there may be some problems here, but we’re on to it! We’ve got the solution in place! It will all be different now! No more children! We hear it exactly copy-and-paste, 20 years on. We’ve had careful political responses from officials, protecting the institutions and not our children. And I’m not putting all of this on officials, because we have to acknowledge that this is not about them solely. This is about the interaction between the political decisions and the system.

Puao-te-ata-tu 1988, a report of the Ministerial Advisory Committee on a Māori Perspective for the Department of Social Welfare presented to Parliament, found “the heart of the issue [of the failure of our child protection service] is a profound misunderstanding or ignorance of the place of the child in Maori society and its relationship with whānau, hapū, iwi structures. … no exaggeration to say, as we do in our report that in many ways the picture we have received is one of crisis proportions. … We make recommendations for a comprehensive approach accordingly.”

The political decisions were to implement some of those recommendations, and not monitor them properly to ensure that they were enforced, but not do the whole job, which has led us to where we are now, where just last year the Waitangi Tribunal conducted an inquiry into Oranga Tamariki and found that “persistent and significant disparity can, in part, be attributed to the effects of alienation and dispossession. However, it also reflects the Crown’s failure to honour the guarantee to Māori of the right of cultural continuity embodied in the guarantee of tino rangatiratanga over their kāinga. As such, the report finds that disparities are a direct consequence of the Crown’s intrusion into the rangatira of Māori over their kāinga.”

We’ve heard from the Labour Party members that this bill is a response to that, that this is Te Tiriti compliant, that it’s responding to the needs and the consultation with Māori that happened before that Waitangi Tribunal report. There has been very strong legal analysis of that bill that says it is inconsistent with our obligations under Te Tiriti, and the submitters that were part of that consultation, when asked, said this bill reflects nothing that was part of that submission, that consultation process, at all. They do not support this, and they find this bill is a further incursion of Crown influence into Māori tino rangatiratanga over kāinga—exactly the opposite of what the Waitangi Tribunal has recommended. This bill does not deliver what is needed. It disrespects and undermines the trust of people who have been hurt by our institutions far too many times—

💬 Terisa Ngobi: Then do something now.

—and it does not get to the heart of what is needed. And I hear from that side that we have to do something. We have to do something. Now, what about more money for the Children’s Commissioner, to actually enable them to deliver on that monitoring role that they have said that they wanted more capacity to be able to deliver on? Actually, that had the support of all of those submitters, for them to do that work. What about that? Why can’t that be our action now, while we wait for the royal commission to report just next year, in less than a year’s time? Why not hold our trust with those people who we have hurt? Why not actually tell them, “We are listening to you. We care about this. We are not going to make the same mistakes again.”? It is a shame on Labour that at this time in our history, when we’ve got a chance—we are being called to do it differently—that, actually, this Government would choose to make the same mistakes that have been made again and again. And it’s going to be our children and our whānau and our communities who pay, and probably the Government in the next election.

Members, just before I call Karen Chhour, it does seem an enigma to me that you take your mask off to sneeze in this place. Karen Chhour.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT to speak on the Children and Young People’s Commission Bill and the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill.

There are so many emotions that I’m feeling right now, from anger to disappointment to despair to just plain disgust at the Labour Party. I hear a member across the House heckling away, trying to prove their point, saying, “Do something now.” Five years you’ve worked on this, and this is all you can come up with?

The Labour Party says they care about our children; they want to make sure that not one more baby is lost. Why are we concentrating on a bill that puts the organisation before our children? This bill does not put children’s voices at the forefront; it puts the organisation at the forefront.

I would just like to read out some of the voices that we heard. From Manaaki Rangatahi, Aaron Hendry quotes: “It is gravely concerning that the voices of care-experienced rangatahi are being ignored. Moving forward with this bill in the face of opposition from those with lived experience sends a message to our young people that their voices do not matter. This decision risks retraumatising and silencing young people who have already suffered at the hands of our system that has historically acted without listening to young people, and in doing so is to harm them.”

VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai: “Oranga Tamariki needs oversight, but not in a way that it undermines the voice and protection of vulnerable tamariki and rangatahi in our care system,” says Mary-Lynn, vice-chair of VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai National Youth Council.

“The Government has not listened to a single recommendation from young people with lived experience on this bill. These young people have been effectively silenced, and the new systems outlined by this bill is designed to further muffle and weaken their voices,” Tracie Shipton, CEO of VOYCE. “We ask that the Government doesn’t bother with the select committee public consultation process. If it’s not going to have any influence on the outcome. Be brave enough to at least be honest. Know that the outcome is predetermined by those in power rather than those they are supposed to serve,”—Ms Shipton from VOYCE.

And one more: “If you do not bring the affected communities on the journey with you from the beginning, you will not make any meaningful change or progress. As a young, care-experienced Māori, I’m sick of seeing the communities I’m part of being displaced and systems that are supposed to be working on their behalf,” from Karah Mackie, chair of VOYCE National Youth Council. Once again, another young person’s voice that’s been shattered.

State care survivor Tupua Urlich is appalled by the bill and what he views has been an undemocratic process in its design. “The very people our members of Parliament are supposed to represent have been seriously misrepresented.”

I stand here today and I say to those youth and those organisations that came before our select committee, laid their souls out in front of us, told us their stories of how they’ve had to deal with this system for years and years and years, and always been told there’s nothing to see here, that I heard you; we heard you. And I’m sorry that this Government is so arrogant that they are not listening. We need to start listening. I sat at the royal commission review yesterday and listened to the response from our CEO of Oranga Tamariki answering to the submissions from the victims. There is pain, there is hurt, and that’s not going to go away. It’s only going to be made worse by this.

Our children need to know that they can voice their concerns; they can cry out for help and they will be heard. These are children that have been through such traumatic experiences that we need to make this process as simple as possible for them. Instead, we’ve complicated it into three separate organisations, creating more barriers for our most vulnerable youth to get help.

If we really, really cared about our young people’s future and wanted to make sure that not one more baby was lost, this would be the second part of the change that we would be doing. The first part would be making sure that they don’t get to this place in the first place—where they have to lay a complaint. Why have they got to the point where they’re having to go to the ombudsman, the Children’s Commissioner, or an independent children’s monitor? Because we are rescuing our babies from our system. Our children are going from one bad house to another bad house. And then when they try and voice that they’re not safe in a place that our system put them in, we’re creating more barriers with this complicated bill. How insulting.

I’ve heard members across the House talk about thanking the young people for coming before us, acknowledging the young people for coming before us. If you are really thankful and grateful, you would have listened to them. This bill talks about making sure we listen to young people’s voices; that these three separate organisations hear our young people’s voices. Well, if this Government has set the example for what listening is, God help our children.

I am disgusted that the people that sat in front of those submitters can sit here and genuinely say they are happy with this bill. I’ve heard there was lots of consultation round in the communities. Well, where were those people submitting saying, “We love this bill, great, push it through.”? Where were they? If your consultation was so wonderful, when they heard there was so much opposition to this, why didn’t they put their hands up and say, “Yes, Labour did come talk to us and we think this is a fantastic idea.”?

Instead, we had over 400 submissions, with the majority of the submissions saying, “Please don’t do this.” Begging you, “Please don’t do this. Our children will not be safe. Our children will be left in situations where they will be harmed, hurt, or worse. They will fall through the cracks.” But nobody’s listening once again. Their voices are worthless in the eyes of this Government. Because if you really did care about our young people’s voices, this bill would go back to select committee for a better process.

Who will be the next person sitting at a royal commission of inquiry in 20 years’ time apologising for the damage that this bill has done? We repeat history over and over and over again, and the excuse I keep hearing is, “You just don’t understand.” The very people that do understand are the people that sat before us in the select committee process and begged and pleaded with the Labour Government to listen.

💬 Hon Member: The ones who lived it.

The ones who lived it, the ones who are living it, and the ones that are going to live it. Because the focus should be on why they’re getting there in the first place—and if Labour really cared, they would have dealt with that first. I oppose this bill.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Wanting to ensure that all children and young people grow up and reach their full potential is one of the reasons I stood for Parliament. Unfortunately, for many children and young people, they need extra support to make sure that this can occur.

But the problem is that we’ve got to make sure that the systems we put in place to do that actually get monitored adequately. We also need to make sure that for children and young people receiving care and support, they know who to go to if they’ve got complaints about that care. I think it’s also really important that the voices of children and young people are heard at the highest level. As we’ve heard tonight across the House, this hasn’t always been the case.

So what this bill does is aims to address all of these three issues. What it looks at doing is strengthening the role of the Children’s Commissioner in advocacy, by putting in place the Children and Young Peoples’ Commission that’s got a broader range of skills and experience around the table and also ensuring that children and young people know where they can go to if they want to complain about the care by making sure that the ombudsman has got a very, very visible complaints process and that children and young people are supported in being able to access and make complaints. But it’s also important that we’ve got an independent monitor that can oversee the Oranga Tamariki system, because we really need to make sure that some of those things that have happened in the past never happen again.

I would like to thank all of those who made submissions on this bill, because it resulted in some really significant changes. This is an important bill, and I’m very happy to commend it to the House.

The next call is a split call. I call on Penny Simmonds for five minutes.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I take this short call to speak in opposition to the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People’s Commission Bill.

The objective of the bill is to promote and improve the Oranga Tamariki welfare system and improve outcomes for children and young people in New Zealand. I just can’t help wondering, having listened to this debate and having looked at the process that’s gone on, what sort of path of destruction this Government is on. To go against such a long list of knowledgeable people in this sector—people that are representing the voices of young people, a royal commission, an ex-leader of the Labour Party—what sort of path of destruction could this Government possibly be on to be going against all these voices that are speaking up against this bill?

If it is such a good bill, someone would be supporting it, but the Government should look around. There isn’t one party in this Parliament that is supporting it. There isn’t anyone in this sector that is supporting it. So why are they holding so steadfastly to this absolute obsession they have got to push something like this through when there is so much opposition to it?

I heard one of the Government MPs speak—and you had to be quick to hear them because they spoke for only a couple of minutes, so they obviously don’t have a lot to say about it. But one of them spoke of her experience in this sector. Now, I found it amazing that she could be so disconnected and so disengaged from this sector to be speaking in support of this bill when the sector have overwhelmingly spoken against it, and that member should be reflecting on how so quickly she got herself disengaged from this sector.

I listened to a colleague, Jan Logie from the Green Party, who quoted a submitter who said, “If you were truly sorry, you would listen.”, and actions speak so much louder than words. So to say that you’re sorry and then go and ignore the voices again and ram this through is not being sorry; it’s disrespectful of those voices.

I cannot understand why this Government wants to be so disrespectful to groups that come at this from such a point of expertise. VOYCE is the entity that stands for the voice of the young and care-experienced. There is nobody that knows better than this group and there is no one that is speaking more loudly on behalf of these young people than VOYCE, and to ignore them is just disrespectful and nothing short of unbelievable in the context of what has gone on in this sector.

It is very difficult to understand what is motivating the Government with this. Much has been said about the fact that it is only a very short time until the royal commission will be reporting back. Surely, surely, any Government making any decisions around something as important as the care and the safety and the wellbeing of our young people would want to be as well-informed as they possibly could. So it defies belief that this Government is ramming this bill through against so much opposition.

Tēnā koe e te Pīka. Tēnā tātou e te Whare. I too am struggling to speak. It is with huge sadness and resolve that I take this call on behalf of Te Paati Māori on the third reading of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill and the Children and Young People’s Commission Bill. Sadness because I think of all our babies, our māmā, our whānau who will be negatively impacted by this legislation, who will struggle even harder to demand answers and transparency from the Crown. Resolve because I know that tangata whenua do not accept the passage of this legislation, do not consent, and that has been made clear to this Government time and time again. As such, we must stop at nothing to see these reforms overturned.

My first message is to everyone who has campaigned, advocated, passionately lobbied, submitted, and posted to try and stop what we are seeing happening before us this evening. Tēnā rawa atu koutou: thank you all. The Government may not have listened to you, but there are MPs in this House who have heard you; there are parties in this House that have heard you. Te Paati Māori has heard you and we will continue to work together to fight with you to protect the w‘akapapa of our mokopuna.

My second message is to the Labour Party. You had every opportunity to listen and respond to the concerns but have failed to do so at every stage. Of those who submitted to the select committee, only eight were in support of the bill, while 311 opposed the bill. Included in this were dozens and dozens of kaupapa Māori organisations and agencies representing the children’s sector. Labour, you have ignored those with lived experience, who know what it’s like to be stuck in a system, to feel unsafe and desperate. You’ve told them you know better. You say you cannot afford to wait for the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State Care, despite taking since 2018 to get to this point.

After the committee stage, we saw a range of excellent Supplementary Order Papers from Jan Logie and Karen Chhour which were not supported by the Government. Just today, Labour have voted down a motion from Jan Logie to refer the bill back to select committee so that consideration of the deep and wide-ranging concerns can continue. On something as important as the oversight and monitoring of child protection agencies, Government should be seeking as broad support as possible, not just from parties in this House but, more importantly, from the advocate frontline workers who dedicate their lives to caring for and protecting w‘akapapa of tamariki and mokopuna.

Instead, what we have seen is Ministers belittling Māori and community organisations by implying that they don’t understand the bill. Instead, we’ve seen a refusal to engage with the most serious and gravest of the issues that have been raised by those with more expertise than anyone in the House. You are complimenting yourselves; no one else in the sector is. This is shameful behaviour. Bulldozing this bill speaks to the level of bullying arrogance that has crept into how this Government is operating. How many more babies do we have to bury before systemic change happens? You’re not in a position to talk about it. How long will it take for Government to step aside and devolve resources for Māori, by Māori? That’s a Treaty solution. That’s tino rangatiratanga.

And how can we expect full accountability and for whānau to demand answers when this very day the Labour Party is going to pass this bill, reducing the guarantees of their accountability, which will, in the words of Hāpai te Hauora, “perpetuate the harms and dysfunction of the current Oranga Tamariki system at disproportionate and irreparable rates”? Our systems of child protection were set up not to protect but to severe w‘akapapa. Let’s remember that—to attempt to disrupt and dismantle our traditional social units: whānau, hapū, and iwi. Well, the Crown failed in the attempt to “smooth the pillow of the dying race”; they did succeed in causing extreme and irreversible intergenerational trauma.

The pageant of these bills will be remembered as a shameful day in the history of the Labour Government. We will continue to fight, not one more child, to ensure the wellbeing of all our tamariki and mokopuna, our rangitahi, and support those who you refuse to listen to in Labour. We oppose this bill. Kia ora koutou.

Kia ora, Madam Speaker, thank you, this evening. Obviously, it has been quite an evening. I’m glad—I’m glad—that there has been this amount of passion, this amount of concern, this amount of care for our tamariki, for our rangatahi.

This afternoon, it was a privilege to have one of my foster boys here in Parliament, showing him around—someone who has been through the system, who has come out the other side. We had a conversation around this legislation. For example, I asked him: did he know who the Children’s Commissioner was? He had no idea. Did you ever consider or understand who this was? And then, as I went through and listed off—because, in many ways, what I’ve heard this evening has been around this space with our Children’s Commissioner, that role that I value, but I see more value with this piece of legislation where it is this group of people with a lead Children’s Commissioner. But as I read through the list of Children’s Commissioners since 1989, when Labour established the Children’s Commission, I saw, as always, mostly men, mostly Pākehā men. So to see the diversity that we can bring with the Children’s Commission, when we can have a Commissioner that’s around disability, that’s around our Pasifika, that’s around Māori, that’s around other spaces and places within our society, I think that brings richness—that brings richness—into this space.

Now, this will be reviewed. And this is part of legislation that will be explored, because it will allow time, one, for it to be imbedded, but, secondly, it will allow time in terms of when the royal commission comes back in its finding and recommendations. As part of this legislation, it will be considered, it will be reflected on, and will then look to be incorporated into what is to come in this future piece of legislation.

I am in this House for our rangatahi and our tamariki. I would not be supporting this bill if I did not believe it was going to some way to the safety and the protection of our children and of our young people, and I am confident. We need to do something. I believe that this is a way forward, and I commend this bill to the House.

I say today, because I want to ensure it’s on the record, that the arrogance and the ignorance of the Government to the process and to the people was demonstrated with absolute clarity when the submissions were opened on 22 December and closed on 26 January, when most people were wrapping up their year to spend time with family and to enjoy a well-earned break, or to go on their holiday jobs. They were not intending to be reading a bill and preparing submissions on such an important issue, and there was absolutely no reason for the timing around that. It could have been extended. It could have been pushed out, because that would have ensured that those with an interest in this bill were well informed and could pool together for their submission process. But I do give credit to those who did make the time and who did present such passionate pleas to the Government to stop this bill and not proceed with this legislation. But here we are tonight.

Now, the Government’s not famous for its preparation for new policies, and if I can allude to the cost of living payment—it’s one such example where the Government, even against their own expert advice, went ahead with that distribution. But, in the case of this bill, the Government has gone to the absolute other extreme. Now, what they’ve done is they’ve had the ombudsman’s office working on the implementation of this bill for over a year. So the IT system is in place, the staff training is in place—and I think that also demonstrates the arrogance of this Government in establishing the form that a bureaucracy will take before the function has been agreed to by the community, through the submissions process to this bill.

As we’ve heard from many of the colleagues tonight, running parallel to the passage of this bill through Parliament is the royal commission of inquiry into the abuse of children in State care. As the commission itself states—and I quote—“This royal commission is bigger, broader, and has more powers than any other inquiry undertaken in New Zealand. It has the capacity to make recommendations that, if implemented, will transform the way we care for children, young people, and vulnerable adults in the future.” Now, waiting on the recommendations of that inquiry, based on the testimony of thousands of survivors, is worth the wait.

There will be recommendations on the Oranga Tamariki (OT) system and its failings, which will guide a new way of doing things and, if children were truly at the heart of any policy change, the best information would be used to guide that change, and the inquiry will provide the absolute best advice. So far in that inquiry, nearly 2,200 survivors have shared their experience. The inquiry team itself actually says it cannot make any findings, reach conclusions, or make recommendations without hearing the voices of those who have lived the experience of State or faith-based care. It is the same for this bill and, to do justice to those people who have the most invested in the change—our babies, our children, our young people—this legislation needs to stop. But, instead, what we found was Minister Sepuloni making last-minute changes to the Government’s own bill after the select committee had done its work, and that’s only because of the overwhelming pressure that was coming from the public and the Opposition.

So I make no excuse for being extremely cynical about the Government’s and the Minister’s last-minute inclusions, which are simply words like “the best interests of children and young people”, “more explicitly providing for the participation of children and young people”, or “more explicitly requiring the Monitor to have child protection responsibilities”. Now, these very issues were discussed in the select committee and were rejected in changes to the bill by the Government members. Only after the ongoing pressure did the Minister finally intervene and put those words into the bill. So, when it comes to this bill, putting in last-minute wording to appease public pressure will not translate into better outcomes for children.

This bill separates the advocacy and monitoring roles that are currently undertaken by the Office of the Children’s Commissioner, and one of the main concerns with moving the oversight into ERO—the Education Review Office, and does that sound like the greatest fit?—was the independence. That was raised over and over again through the process by submitters. It doesn’t matter how you look at it, ERO is a Government department, and the Minister can say all she likes but a Government department is still subject to ministerial control.

For those whose lives are affected, they need independence and a strong degree of trust. The Children’s Commissioner has that trust and independence, and it’s been built up over the 32 years that that office has been in place. It’s already where children and young people know to go for their advocacy. This was the overwhelming feedback from submitters to the select committee. If, as we’ve heard already tonight, there was a problem with the Children’s Commissioner’s office being able to deal with its workload, then simply resource that office better so that it can deal with the workload. It didn’t need this wholesale change at this point in time.

The Government did make a very big deal, and has done tonight in speeches from their members, about this need for separation between advocacy and monitoring, but there was no evidence presented at all to support that argument. I even recall one submitter suggesting that the bill should be renamed the “Oranga Tamariki System Oversight Bill” because that’s actually what it will do. It’s going to monitor the systems that are in place but not the outcomes for children. The Government doesn’t measure outcomes—and there’s reasons for that—because they can’t deliver. But, in this case, it’s the lives of our most precious young people who will be affected by the change in this legislation. You can be sure that every NGO, and every community group, and every person that has lived that care-experienced life will be watching to ensure and hold this Government to account that things don’t slide back any further than they already have.

I’m going to run out of time for all of my points that I wanted to make, but the last point I want to make is around this bill and how it’s not actually going to change any of the practices within Oranga Tamariki. It’s not going to help unwind the complexities within the OT system—in fact, it will make it worse—and it certainly isn’t going to help recruit more social workers. It’s adding more complexity. But I want to speak directly to Tupua Urlich from VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai: Tupua, keep speaking, because your voice matters. I’ll finish with a quote that I believe sums up this bill, which came from a group during the submissions—Mana Wāhine Kōrero: “This is more shuffling of the deckchairs on the Titanic, and the Government are the violinists.” Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Child protection, especially in a New Zealand context, is always emotive. We’ve long-known that policy can be driven by moral panic, overdetermined by either the death or abuse of children while at home or while in care. So when speakers of this House stand and they speak authentically about this issue, it is a real issue. It’s an issue in all of our communities around the country.

The previous speaker spoke about how terrible this bill’s going to be, but, actually, it was her Government that sat on their hands for so long and did nothing to actually really address the root causes that were systemically wrong in our child protection agencies. So I thank the Minister for actually stepping up to the plate and choosing to do something that she believes is actually going to make a real difference for the future of our systems in New Zealand and the way that we look after our children.

But this journey isn’t a new thing. This journey started back in 2017. It was underpinned by our Government’s focus and commitment to overhauling Oranga Tamariki. That’s right, people have forgotten that; that, actually, we were the ones that stepped up to the plate in Government to say that we are going to reform this and we’re going to do it with prudence, as well.

So the 2018 Beatie report highlighted how inadequate our system of oversight really was, which is why we acted really quickly to ensure that that oversight was strengthened. And, yes, we’ve had a robust select committee process, but yes, we’ve also made some changes too. We’ve retained the Chief Children’s Commissioner. We’ve strengthened the independence of the monitor. We’ve reduced the review period from five years right the way down to three years. Because, you know what, it’s OK to admit that we’re trying to change the system that desperately needs changing. Being able to shorten that period in which a review takes place is, I’m sure, welcomed by many around this House.

This is a very necessary piece of legislation. I thank the Minister. I thank all of those people that have contributed to it. I look forward to the review in three years’ time so we can look over our shoulder and actually see how this has gone. If changes need to be made, let’s make those changes, but let’s not be afraid to actually push on and try to do as much as we can with the time that we’ve got for the benefit of our children, our tamariki, and our mokopuna yet to be born. I commend this bill to the House.