Oral Questions

1. to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?

Activity in the services sector expanded to above its long-term average—for the second successive month—in June, with the seasonally adjusted BNZ-Business New Zealand Performance of Services Index at 55.4, new orders at 61.7, and sales at 56.5 remained at healthy levels, while employment rose. The BNZ economists said the positive result indicated that the economy had momentum in the June quarter. There is further opportunity for growth in the services sector, with the opening of borders and the prospect of a strong tourism season this summer, including the arrival of cruise ships, which begin this week. Nevertheless, we do know that 2022 is continuing to be a tough year for many households and businesses, and we will continue our support for them through this period.

💬 Greg O’Connor: What other reports has he seen on the economy?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The latest Xero Small Business Index has shown that businesses continue to be resilient. Sales grew 3.3 percent year on year, while jobs also grew 4.4 percent. Wage growth was 6.8 percent. Overall, the index jumped to 146, the highest level since the series began in 2017. Xero said that while the sector appears in reasonable shape, small businesses are operating in a challenging global environment. This is why the Government continues to support small businesses, including through the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme; the provision of support for digital initiatives and mental health programmes; and the immigration reset, which allows accredited employers easier access to the staff that they need.

💬 Greg O’Connor: What reports has he seen on business investing in the economy?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The overseas merchandise trade figures show businesses are continuing to invest in the economy. Imported machinery and plant rose 16 percent, to $945 million in June 2022, compared with the same month a year earlier. For the June year, imports in machinery and plant rose 26 percent, to $10.8 billion. Despite a volatile and uncertain global environment, the decision of businesses to invest and improve our productivity will support New Zealand’s economy and its recovery.

Question No. 2—Prime Minister

2. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government’s statements and actions?

Yes. This Government has delivered record low unemployment in one of the lowest rates in the OECD, lower than the likes of Australia, the UK, Canada, the US, and the OECD average is 5 percent. At the outset of COVID-19, Treasury was forecasting unemployment of 9.6 percent for June 2020. Our response has been to 142,000 fewer people being on a main benefit than forecast and a much-lower proportion of the working-age population receiving a main benefit than the then Government achieved during the GFC despite the ongoing volatile and uncertain environment. Of particular note is the Māori unemployment rate of 5.5 percent, which looks to be the lowest it has been since modern records began. Two years after the GFC, Māori unemployment was at 14.5 percent, more than 2½ times as high. We are seeing similar results for our Pasifika communities and women. These results are testament to our focus on maintaining jobs and supporting New Zealanders into work in these challenging times. New Zealand is in a strong position to support households and businesses. Unemployment is low, exports are growing, and Government debt is substantially below most other nations.

💬 David Seymour: Does she stand by her Government’s issuing of its cost of living payment, and, if so, how many of the 800,000 people who were eligible but did not receive the first payment last week have now received it?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: In answer to the first part of the question, yes.

💬 David Seymour: How many of the 800,000 who were eligible for the cost of living payment but did not receive it last week have now received it?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The latest figures that I have were that a total of 1.3 million to 3 million people have received a payment. I should note, I believe that may have been last updated, possibly, last week. We do know, of course—and we’re being always open about the fact that there are a small portion for whom we don’t have their bank account details; that’s about 134,000. That leaves an estimated 642,000 people who are likely eligible, which will be confirmed once their returns are received and their assessments are finalised, and that was always the case.

💬 David Seymour: How is it possible that after four months of trying to implement the policy, the Government is still missing 140,000 people’s bank accounts?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, we have always been clear that there are some individuals who we don’t have the most up-to-date information for. Through IRD, we have worked in recent times, as we’ve moved towards the date of the cost of living payment being made, to seek for those individuals to update their details. That work will continue because we have another two payments to be received.

💬 David Seymour: In relation to her statement, “That is not to say there are no consequences” for young people who do ram raids, how many people have been arrested specifically for ram-raiding since the Government announced a crackdown on ram-raiding three months ago, and what’s happened to those people since?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I would be more than happy to answer the member’s question if he were to put that on notice—that means I could give him the most up-to-date information.

💬 David Seymour: How is it possible that after months of New Zealanders being terrorised by ram raids, and the Government announcing a crackdown, she is not across the detail of how many ram raiders have been detained and where they are now?

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! That question is not in order. If the member looks at Speaker’s ruling 183/3, which is a longstanding one, he should know that it’s not.

💬 David Seymour: Point of order.

💬 SPEAKER: I hope the member is not going to argue with me.

💬 David Seymour: Oh, I just seek permission to ask that question again and—

💬 SPEAKER: No, no. The member’s outside—he’s lost it.

💬 David Seymour: How is it possible that after months of New Zealanders being terrorised by ram raiders, the Prime Minister can’t say how many people have been detained and what’s happened to them for ram-raiding?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I utterly reject the sentiment that the member is implying, that because I cannot currently tell the member the most up-to-date figures and, for instance, the convictions or charges that have been laid for each of those individual circumstances, that that means we have not undertaken action in this area. That is patently untrue. Two particular examples, when it comes generally to the issue of retail crime: the police have responded by establishing a specific unit that is working on retail crime. There have been hundreds of charges laid as a result of that unit alone. Secondly, we have already also established, in a similar way that we did to supporting businesses with fog cannons, a fund to support preventative measures for those businesses that may have previously been targeted or are at risk of being targeted. That may reach up to, for instance, 500 individual businesses. We’ve been working with Retail NZ and the police in order to ensure that the criteria for that is appropriate, and to begin rolling it out as soon as possible.

💬 David Seymour: Does she stand by her statement, “I reject the sentiment of the question or I utterly reject the sentiment of the question”, and how does she make that choice?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: With the member’s question, it’s quite easy.

💬 David Seymour: Does she stand by her answer to Jack Tame’s question about equal political rights for Māori and non-Māori, “I would argue this is such an overly simplistic response.”; if so, can she explain why she doesn’t just agree that “Pākehā people should have the same level of representation guaranteed as Māori people.”?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I do stand by that statement. And I would question whether or not the member can reconcile his own position on representation when he’s advocating for privatisation of these assets, where, presumably, the representation would no longer be from local bodies but, actually, probably offshore corporate boards.

Question No. 3—Prime Minister

3. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government’s statements and actions?

Yes, particularly this Government’s Mana in Mahi programme as is continues to go from strength to strength, with 5,000 job seekers supported into jobs, exceeding the 4,000 target. Mana in Mahi supports individuals through pre-employment training, it can pay a wage subsidy, provide support while they’re employed, or cover the industry training course fees. Members opposite would be pleased to learn that there is also an incentive payment to the employee. Mana in Mahi, along with the Government’s suite of employment programmes, have helped to support our recovery from COVID-19 and remain a critical part of our plan to support more New Zealanders into work. As testament to that, record low levels of unemployment and particularly record low levels of unemployment for Māori and Pacific.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she accept that Mana in Mahi is not doing much for long-term job seekers, when just 14 percent of participants had been on a benefit for a year or longer when they entered the programme?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I totally reject the idea that Mana in Mahi is anything other than a successful programme. Two examples of that: over 60 percent of those involved are young people; secondly, 90 percent of them aren’t going back on to benefit. Thirdly, the member will find that the majority of young people are on a benefit for less than 12 months. You wouldn’t know that by the way he characterises them.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Why, at a time of labour shortages in almost every sector, are there 50,000 more people on the jobseeker benefit today compared to when she became Prime Minister?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, here I think it pays to compare the two periods when we have had significant economic disruption. COVID-19 and the pandemic, I would say, probably outstrips all other examples, and the percentage of New Zealanders on a main benefit is 11 percent lower than in the aftermath of the global financial crisis. We also, despite that, have record numbers of people coming off benefit, which demonstrates the programmes we have in place are working.

💬 Christopher Luxon: What does the pandemic have to do with the fact that right now, when there are plenty of unfilled jobs in almost every sector and region, there are still 50,000 more people on jobseeker than when she took office?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The member has chosen particularly to hone in on young people and so I will do the same. We know that young people in this pandemic and in this economic crisis have been in the roles hardest hit by the pandemic—in areas like tourism, hospitality. Just last week, I met a Mana in Mahi participant who was made redundant from their job and moved into a new role because of Mana in Mahi. That is the reason why we have seen record levels of young people move off a benefit and into work at a rate of over 35,000 young people in the last year. My final point to the member: I see from his announcement that he’s drawn on a number of initiatives that he believes would be successful. If the member took any time to look at our existing programmes, he’d know that all of them are already in place, so I can only then lead myself to believe that this is about the politics not the policy.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she think there are too many people on jobseeker, considering there is no shortage of job vacancies in most sectors?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I want everyone seeking work to find work but the member does not take into account that many people experience barriers to employment. Seventy percent of entry-level jobs require a driver licence, so what are we doing as a Government? Supporting them into driver licensing. Of course there are circumstances where young people may need extra support and mentoring, so the member will be heartened to know we already use coaching services. You would think that the member would know that because last week he visited VisionWest where the Government funds that very thing.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Why is the number of people on jobseeker now 77,000 higher than the number of unemployed people, according to Stats New Zealand, when for most of the last decade the difference was less than 5,000?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, I bring back the member to the raw numbers, and, in comparison to our population growth, we have a lower level of people on main benefits now than we did even after the global financial crisis (GFC). And we have record numbers of people going off benefit into work. One of the reasons for that is because, as a Government, we supported an increase in case managers at the Ministry of Social Development so that they spent more time supporting people into work. I note that his deputy leader is now criticising that spend.

💬 Christopher Luxon: How does she reconcile the view of Labour MP Ginny Andersen that “We’ve got some of the best stats we’ve ever seen for getting young people into skilled paid employment” with the fact that there over 34,000 eighteen- to 24-year-olds on jobseeker—up 49 percent since she took office?

💬 SPEAKER: I’m going to ask the member to rephrase the question, going to what the Prime Minister’s responsible for.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she agree with the view of Labour MP Ginny Andersen that “We’ve got some of the best stats we’ve ever seen for getting young people into skilled paid employment” with the fact that there over 34,000 eighteen- to 24-year-olds on jobseeker—up 49 percent since she took office?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I can also add that the number of people moving young people moving from benefit into work is 56 percent higher than when National were in Government.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Why is the number of 18- to 24-year-olds on jobseeker for two to five years up 134 percent since she took office?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, I come back to the point that I made at the beginning of my questions: an economic crisis affects population groups differently. Young people, Māori, and Pacific have tended to bear the brunt of economic crisis. Under the GFC, I note that we saw unemployment levels double than what the national levels were. Contrast that to now—unemployment levels at 3.3 percent, and for Māori at 5.5. We have not seen a closing of that difference—the likes of which we have never seen before. It is significant, and it is because we have active employment policies, and the other reason is because we don’t write people off.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Why are dead people receiving the cost of living payment?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The member is well aware from answers in this House that when the Department of Internal Affairs receives information that an individual is deceased, that information is shared with IRD, and then that means that those individuals do not receive those payments. If there is no notification, that cannot occur.

Question No. 4—Housing

4. to the Minister of Housing: What action is the Government taking to get more young people into careers in the construction sector through its public housing build programme?

Our Government has not only added over 10,000 new public housing places since 2017 but we’ve also launched Kāinga Ora’s apprenticeship programme. Since 2019, 333 people have entered into cadetships and apprenticeships with our build partners and subcontractors across the State housing programme. This programme actively recruits more women, Māori, and Pasifika, as well as Kāinga Ora tenants, into apprenticeships. Additionally, through our ramped-up maintenance programme, a further 384 apprentices and cadets are learning valuable trade skills while carrying out maintenance on State homes. This has led to a total of over 700 young people who have learnt valuable construction skills through our build programme.

💬 Terisa Ngobi: What regions are benefiting from encouraging young people into the building and construction sector?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: Kāinga Ora’s partnerships with schools are helping to train the next generation of tradies all around the country. Kāinga Ora have eight partnerships with schools and polytechs, and have five more currently being worked on. Communities across New Zealand benefiting from this programme are in Dargaville, Onehunga, Rotorua, Hastings, Ōpōtiki, Wellington, and Nelson. More good work is happening in Auckland, where Kāinga Ora has collaborated with the construction company Icon to deliver an innovative 276-apartment complex at Greys Avenue. On this single project alone, 15 apprentices are working on this site.

💬 Terisa Ngobi: What else is the Government doing to create opportunities for young people in the construction sector?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: Through the Construction Sector Accord, we are working with industry to identify the next generation of leaders for the construction sector. We want to provide a pathway for young people to thrive in the sector and help build infrastructure and housing for future generations. I’m proud that over the last two years, over 190,000 people have benefited from the Government’s investment in trades training, including apprenticeships, an achievement I am sure my colleague the Minister of Education will, no doubt, cover in greater detail in the not too distant future.

Question No. 5—Revenue

5. to the Minister of Revenue: Does he agree with the Minister of Finance’s statement from 17 July 2022 regarding the cost of living payment that “this payment will support an estimated 2.1 million people”, and is he satisfied with the delivery of this payment?

Yes, and yes. This payment has already reached over 1.3 million New Zealanders promptly, supporting them through a time of elevated cost of living. An estimated 800,000 additional people will become entitled as they file their tax return for the year ended 31 March 2022 or provide their bank details.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does he stand by his statement made to Tova O’Brien in an interview last week where he said that for an ineligible person to have received the payment, they “would have to be acting fraudulently”?

💬 Hon DAVID PARKER: No, I don’t think I did say that.

💬 Erica Stanford: Yes, you did.

💬 Hon DAVID PARKER: If I said that, that’s been taken out of context. I always made it clear that the payment was being made on the basis of the details held by Inland Revenue.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does the Minister stand by the statement he made to Tova O’Brien that “The French man as your example … He will know or should know from the information that he has received, that because he is no longer resident in New Zealand, he’s not qualified. Therefore, for him to get the payment, he would have to be acting fraudulently.”?

💬 Hon DAVID PARKER: Yes, I do, because I heard the radio station play a clip in respect of that person which indicated that the person knew that the entitlement was based on being resident in New Zealand and he knew that he wasn’t.

💬 Nicola Willis: Did IRD conduct data matching with Immigration New Zealand or other agencies to check whether potential recipients had moved overseas, and, if not, why not?

💬 Hon DAVID PARKER: No, they haven’t, in part because their information-sharing arrangements with Customs don’t cover the use of the data in that way.

💬 Nicola Willis: Did it not occur to the Minister that not everyone in IRD’s database would have updated their address after having moved overseas, and why were no steps taken to prevent them receiving the payment?

💬 Hon DAVID PARKER: Indeed, Inland Revenue advised Cabinet, and Cabinet agreed, that this would be paid on the basis of eligibility criteria that would not always be correct. Inland Revenue advised, and Cabinet agreed, that the payment in those situations would be non-recoverable, other than in the cases of fraudulent activity.

💬 Nicola Willis: Can the Minister guarantee that no money has been paid to prisoners through the cost of living payment, who are just as ineligible for that payment as those living overseas?

💬 Hon DAVID PARKER: I can guarantee that they’re ineligible to receive the payment, and I can also advise the member that I’ve received no reports of any such instance.

Question No. 6—Education

6. to the Minister of Education: What contribution is the Government making to getting New Zealanders work-ready and helping to meet industries’ skill needs?

Revitalising apprenticeships and vocational education has been a top priority for this Government. We’re now seeing record numbers of apprentices learning their trade whilst working on the job. As of April this year, there were 62,000 apprentices across a range of industries. That’s a 60 percent increase in the last two years alone. A further 41,000 industry trainees were enrolled in shorter programmes of study. This shows that the vocational education system is in good heart, supported by the Government’s Apprenticeship Boost and Targeted Training and Apprenticeship Fund.

💬 Dan Rosewarne: What specific initiatives has the Government funded to increase the effectiveness and diversity of workplace training?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: In order for workplace learning to meet New Zealand’s needs, we need to know what training is needed in the first place and we need to reach the full breadth of the population. That’s why we funded the Building and Construction Industry Training Organisation to develop a forecasting tool that displays national and regional skills gaps and surpluses within the construction and infrastructure labour market. That approach is now being rolled out across a wider range of industries. Project Retrain has also been funded to attract more women into the construction sector, and, again, similar approaches are now being rolled out in other traditionally male-dominated industries.

💬 Dan Rosewarne: What other programmes are getting New Zealanders work-ready and helping to meet industries’ skills needs?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: There’s heaps. So I’ll just give a partial list: 3,000 Kiwis have benefited from intensive literacy and numeracy over the last year; 4,400 from workplace literacy programmes; 13,000 school students earned credits in the workplace through Gateway; and there are around 10,000 studying at trades academies. As a response to COVID-19, we funded a direct career service, which has delivered nearly 10,000 sessions of face-to-face careers advice and another 2,000 over the phone. Nearly a quarter of those sessions were for under-25-year-olds.

Question No. 7—Social Development and Employment

7. to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What is the percentage increase in jobseeker support recipients aged 18-24 (inclusive) who have spent one year or longer on a benefit when comparing the September 2017 quarter to the June 2022 quarter, and what is the percentage increase in jobseeker support recipients aged 18-24 (inclusive) who have spent two to three consecutive years on a benefit when comparing the September 2017 quarter to the June 2022 quarter?

As at the June quarter 2022, 8,388 people aged 18 to 24 had been receiving a jobseeker work-ready benefit for a year or more. There were also 4,995 job seekers with a health and disability exemption. All up, this represents an 84 percent increase from September 2017. Of these, 2,553 young people had been on jobseeker work-ready benefit for two to three years in the June quarter, and 1,464 have a health and disability exemption. The total of 4,021 represents a 133.9 percentage increase from 2017. The numbers of young people receiving a jobseeker benefit for longer than a year has fallen 7.6 percent since the March 2022 quarter. Alongside this, we’ve seen a 56 percent increase in the number of young people moving off benefit and into work, when comparing June 2017 to June 2022. This is record numbers of people moving into work. Since the pandemic began, we have seen increased numbers of young people applying for a jobseeker benefit and we have responded by increasing our investment into work-focused case management. Our response is working, and numbers of people on benefit are falling each quarter.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Can she explain why, at a time businesses are desperate for staff, more young people are stuck on benefit long term compared to when the Government took office?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: As I said, we are seeing record numbers of young people—record numbers of beneficiaries—leaving benefit to enter into work. The Prime Minister traversed this very well, earlier, with regards to young people and the impacts that economic events can have on them. They are often the ones that are most disadvantaged. They are often working in the jobs that are first to go. That’s certainly what we’ve seen here. But what we’re also seeing is our investment into young people paying off with regards to them being able to upskill and train and take on the employment that is available.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Can she confirm that Mana in Mahi, on average, has only placed 178 people a year into jobs who were on benefit longer than a year, while 13,000 young people are currently on the jobseeker benefit long term?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I’m glad she’s asked a question about Mana in Mahi. We have seen over 5,000 people get work through Mana in Mahi. Our focus is on all young people. I think what the other side of the House did not understand is that there is a prevention component here: get in early with young people and support them into the upskilling and training and opportunities that they need, so that they don’t end up on benefit or they don’t end up on benefit long term. We absolutely believe in the potential of our young people, and we’re investing in all of them.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Can she confirm that while 13,000 young Kiwis are stuck on the jobseeker benefit long term, almost half of all Mana in Mahi placements were not receiving a benefit when they started Mana in Mahi?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I am so glad that the member pointed it out. That is the different approach that we take on this side of the House. Those people that took up Mana in Mahi were still deemed to be at risk of long-term welfare receipt. They were still deemed to be disadvantaged during an economic event. We get in there early as a Government to invest in our young people. We certainly don’t see them as pretty damned hopeless. We certainly don’t see them as bottom feeders, and we certainly don’t see them as getting a free ride.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Point of order. I seek leave to table a written question answer showing just 14 percent of people on benefit longer than one year started Mana in Mahi.

💬 SPEAKER: Has that been published?

💬 Hon Louise Upston: No, it hasn’t.

💬 SPEAKER: Is there any objection to that being published early? There appears to be none.

Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: How many of the 13,000 young people, if any, on the jobseeker benefit longer than one year will be supported into jobs by all of the Government’s employment initiatives within the next six months?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I have to say, much more under us than would have been under them. When we came into Government, the work-focused front-line case management had been declining over a period of years. That investment wasn’t there. We don’t oversimplify the issues that our young people have. We now have Mana in Mahi. We’ve got a significant investment in apprenticeships, keeping in mind that after the global financial crisis the National Government then cut that investment. We’ve got things like Flexi-wage. We are working hard with our young people, and the results are proving that what we’re doing is working.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Does she agree with Jacinda Ardern, who said, in relation to long-term unemployment, that “loss of potential, and the greatest of wastes, and I am determined it will not happen on Labour’s watch.”, and, if so, why has this Government allowed the number of young people on the jobseeker benefit long term to double?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I absolutely agree with the Prime Minister and what she said. That’s why, year on year, even prior to the pandemic, we have been investing in opportunities for our young people. We haven’t written them off. We don’t stigmatise them. We recognise the complex challenges that many of them have with regards to being able to take up employment, and our track record with regards to the investments and the initiatives that we have put in place prove that—including, of course, the 86 million, I believe, that we’ve put into driver’s licences, recognising that 70 percent of jobs require that people have that driver’s licence. That’s the type of investment that the previous Government didn’t bother to make. We’re doing it.

Ricardo Menéndez March: Has the Minister seen any conclusive evidence that benefit sanctions towards jobseeker beneficiaries are effective at supporting people into paid work, and, if not, does she agree that using sanctions causes harm to the children and families living in poverty?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I believe that sanctions, particularly cutting people’s benefits, should be used as a last resort. It has overwhelming impacts on families when it is used in a punitive way too easily without actually traversing the circumstances of the families. I have seen evidence to suggest in the UK and in the United States that a punitive approach can actually be counterproductive to supporting people into work. That’s why we’re not taking the approach that the other side of the House endorses.

Question No. 8—Social Development and Employment

8. to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What updates has she received on the progress of Mana in Mahi?

I’m pleased to report that the Government’s Mana in Mahi programme continues to go from strength to strength, with over 5,000 job seekers supported into jobs. This exceeds our initial target of 4,000 following its extension in 2019. Nearly half, or 44 percent, are Māori or Pacific, and 64 percent are aged under 24 years; 89 percent who have a training pathway are working towards a qualification at NZQA level 3 or higher; and 90 percent have either completed, are currently active, or have exited early but are not back on benefit.

💬 Jo Luxton: How does this compare to the Government’s other employment programmes?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: We remain relentless, deliberate, and unapologetic in our approach to supporting Kiwis into jobs as we secure our recovery from COVID-19. What we are seeing, alongside record exits off benefit and into work, and in addition to over 5,000 people in Mana in Mahi placements, is almost 50,000 apprentices picking up a trade through Apprenticeship Boost, almost 18,000 people through Flexi-wage, and 3,800 young people engaged in He Poutama Rangatahi. Mana in Mahi is only one tool amongst many in our tool box that we’re using to support young people into employment, education, or training.

💬 Jo Luxton: What feedback has she seen on Mana in Mahi?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Rod Giles, CE of Contracting Warehouse, who has had a relationship with the Ministry of Social Development for over 40 years, said, “During this time, and under various Governments, I have experienced many variations of incentives for both employers and the unemployed. In my experience, the Mana in Mahi scheme is currently the most successful to date, both for myself as an employer and, I believe, for the candidates that I have employed.”

Question No. 9—Local Government

9. to the Minister of Local Government: Does she agree with the Office of the Auditor-General that Three Waters legislation risks “creating a fragmented approach to the planning and delivery of services” and “less opportunity for communities to be effectively engaged”?

On behalf of the Minister—

💬 SPEAKER: Can I just do a check, again—I did this last week. Is the member not the Acting Minister?

💬 Hon KIERAN McANULTY: Yeah no, you’re right; I am. We always take seriously comments that the Auditor-General makes on legislation, and we are prepared to consider all constructive suggestions for improvements. This is exactly what the select committee process is for. The Auditor-General in his submission noted the need for water services reform, and I agree with him. He has also provided constructive suggestions on how the arrangements for reporting and transparency can be improved, and the select committee is considering these.

💬 Simon Watts: Does she agree—

💬 SPEAKER: No—“does he agree.”

💬 Simon Watts: Does he agree with the Office of the Auditor-General that “as currently drafted in the Bill, the accountability arrangements and potential governance weaknesses, combined with the diminution in independent assurance noted earlier, could have an adverse effect on public accountability, transparency, and organisational performance.”, and, if so, what will he be doing to remedy these concerns?

💬 Hon KIERAN McANULTY: As we’ve already said, we appreciate the constructive feedback that the Auditor-General has provided. I also note comments that were included in the submission that said New Zealand faces a significant infrastructure challenge with the drinking-water, waste-water, and stormwater services that are currently delivered by local authorities. The bill intends to pave the way for improved, effective, and efficient management of the three waters service delivery and infrastructure by establishing four stand-alone water service entities.

💬 Simon Watts: Who is correct: the Prime Minister, who said the ownership of these entities sits with local bodies and government, so it’s not changing the ownership structures, or the Office of the Auditor-General who said, “The Bill alone does not provide enough information for us to form a view” on the control of water entities?

💬 Hon KIERAN McANULTY: I note that in the submission the Auditor-General recognises that they are looking at it through a very specific lens, and any other view on the submission would be expanding that lens. It is a matter of fact that ownership of the water entities remains with local councils and any suggestion otherwise, I think, is mischief making.

💬 Simon Court: Does the Minister agree with the Office of the Auditor-General that water service entities cannot be held accountable by either ratepayers or the Government under the Minister’s regulatory model, and, in that case, who are these entities accountable to?

💬 Hon KIERAN McANULTY: There are a number of proposed mechanisms by which the entities would remain accountable to the communities that retain the ownership over them. The point of the reforms and the point of the structure that is being proposed is very simple, but it appears to be a point that is either misunderstood or deliberately overlooked. We are facing a $185 billion problem, and at the moment, the status quo, it is the ratepayers of this country who will face that bill. If we do not reform, as every single council in the country is calling for and as the Auditor-General is calling for in their submission, if we stay with the status quo like the National Party and the ACT Party are proposing, a $185 billion cost will be borne by ratepayers and ratepayers alone.

💬 Simon Court: How does the Minister define “ownership”, and does the Minister think it’s misleading to tell local authorities they will retain ownership of three waters entities, while, at the same time, forcing them to surrender all control to these new, unaccountable water service entities?

💬 Hon KIERAN McANULTY: I would define “ownership” much more accurately than the description the member has just given about the three waters reforms. This is a situation where, without reform, the ratepayers of this country will bear the full cost of $185 billion. That is $185 billion that individually they simply cannot find the resources to pay for it because of the debt caps that are imposed on councils. The restructure proposes a particular and deliberate structure that removes that potential, that future liability, from both the balance sheets of councils and of central government, and, whilst doing so, retains ownership in the entities.

💬 Simon Court: Point of order. I don’t believe the Minister addressed the question, which is how—

💬 SPEAKER: No; I heard the question and I heard him address it in about the first six words. I was hoping that he might come back to it but he didn’t.

💬 Simon Watts: Why did he not listen when these exact problems about public accountability and transparency were raised to him by local communities right at the start of this process, and will he now apologise for dismissing these concerns?

💬 Hon KIERAN McANULTY: I would consider apologising if, after four years of considering reforms of water services, we didn’t have a single alternative proposal to put to the country. That’s the situation the National Party are in and that’s the situation the ACT Party are in. We—after four years of looking into this issue, this $185 billion problem facing local councils in this country—have a way forward. Throughout that process, we have listened to the concerns of stakeholders and local councils. The establishment of the working group, which was made up of local government representatives, many of them who have expressed concerns about the proposals up to that point, made recommendations. Those recommendations were included in the bill that was brought to this House and that is an indication, I think, to the country that this Government is open to constructive ideas and feedback—just like those put forward by the Auditor-General—and this Government will consider those in good faith.

💬 Simon Watts: Will he now accept, in light of the Office of the Auditor-General’s submission and four years of planning, that he’s got it wrong on the three waters, and that communities against the reforms were right to call them out as un-transparent and unaccountable?

💬 Hon KIERAN McANULTY: If the member spent time, as I have, travelling around and visiting councils—22 councils so far in the last three weeks—every single one of them has said that the status quo is unsustainable, even those that have publicly expressed concerns about three waters. So, no, I cannot stand here and listen to the member criticise a process that looks to reform a problem, when that member and his party have offered no alternative solution in four years of whingeing.

Question No. 10—Economic and Regional Development

10. to the Minister for Economic and Regional Development: What recent announcements has he made on opportunities for the space sector?

Today, United States Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman and I signed a framework agreement on how New Zealand and the United States will work together on the use of aerospace and outer space for peaceful purposes. The signing followed Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Vice President Kamala Harris welcoming the completion of negotiations on this agreement during their recent meeting in Washington, DC. We have an incredibly innovative space sector here in New Zealand. Despite our small size, we’ve become a notable player on the global space industry, and signing the framework agreement marks an exciting step for our space sector. The partnership and deeper cooperation with NASA that will be facilitated by this agreement will over time contribute to wider economic, social, cultural, and environmental benefits to Aotearoa New Zealand.

💬 Naisi Chen: What areas of collaboration might this agreement lead to?

💬 Hon STUART NASH: We are currently discussing areas of mutual interest with NASA. However, as well as potential involvement in space exploration activities, we see potential to jointly work on technologies applicable to on-earth challenges in key New Zealand interest areas and industries. These could include rapid pharmaceutical and vaccine development and production, sustainable food production, material sciences, climate change - and disaster-resilient utilities and infrastructure, and renewable energy generation.

💬 Naisi Chen: How many jobs does the space sector support?

💬 Hon STUART NASH: In 2019, Deloitte Access Economics estimated that the New Zealand space sector generated revenue of $1.75 billion, of which $495 million represented returns to labour. The report found that the sector supported 5,000 fulltime-equivalent (FTE) roles across all space subsectors. The space sector also indirectly supported approximately 7,000 FTE positions in industries that provide services to the space sector. The space industry is knowledge intensive and dominated by high-skill jobs. Globally, the space sector has among the highest levels of returns to labour of any sector, and today’s signing is a further positive development for high-wage jobs in New Zealand.

Question No. 11—Oceans and Fisheries

11. to the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries: Was he aware before the publication of the DOC-commissioned report that at least 273 protected sea turtles were caught between 2007/08 and 2020/21; if so, who told him?

No. But in March 2021, I was advised by Fisheries New Zealand about a high number of turtle captures in the surface longline fishery for the prior quarter: 40 turtles had been caught, 38 released alive, and two were dead. Fisheries New Zealand have since undertaken further work on measures to reduce the capture of turtles.

💬 Hon Eugenie Sage: How does he respond to the statement in the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research (NIWA) report entitled Review of commercial fishing interactions with marine reptiles that “to date, little progress has been made” on any of the recommendations in a similar scientific report in 2016, including to better monitor sea turtle catch, implement guidelines to reduce sea turtle mortality, revise the allocation of fisheries observer coverage, and improve data quality and monitoring?

💬 Hon DAVID PARKER: In respect of measures that have been taken, I’m advised that the use of wire leaders was banned in 2015 and the analysis of the effect of this—wire leaders make it more difficult to release protected species when caught—shows a significant reduction in catches of protected species, including turtles and sharks. Earlier this year, public consultation also concluded on the banning of J hooks to reduce turtle captures, and I’ll be receiving advice on that later this year prior to making a final decision. In addition, Fisheries New Zealand works with the Department of Conservation protected species liaison officer programme to provide fishers with education and information and equipment, such as line cutters, to support the safe release of turtles. In addition, Fisheries New Zealand is collaborating with the University of Florida on research about sea turtle distribution and potential mitigation. In addition, of course, we have funded, in the last year, cameras on boats, which are being rolled out, and I’m advised, once that roll-out is finished, it will cover 95 percent of the captures, which were in longline fishers of highly migratory species, all of which are intended to be covered through cameras on boats.

💬 Hon Eugenie Sage: Has he asked Fisheries New Zealand for advice on establishing a capture limit for endangered leatherback turtles in the surface longline fisheries for bigeye tuna and swordfish in Fisheries Management Area 1, the area where most turtles are caught, to trigger a closure of those fisheries when the limit is reached, as occurs in similar longline fisheries in Hawaii, and, if not, why not?

💬 Hon DAVID PARKER: We do actually have limits like that for some species of dolphin. In respect of the report that the member referred to in the primary question, it was a NIWA report prepared primarily for the Department of Conservation. That report will be considered by officials, including from Fisheries, before further decisions are taken.

💬 Hon Eugenie Sage: Does he agree with previous Fisheries New Zealand views that measures such as set capture limits are unnecessary because turtle captures in New Zealand waters are minimal now that NIWA has reported the capture of 58 turtles, largely endangered leatherback turtles, in a single year, 2020-21, the highest on record?

💬 Hon DAVID PARKER: In respect of that number, indeed, 40 of those 50 were in a single quarter and that concerns me.

💬 Hon Eugenie Sage: Has he asked Fisheries New Zealand to expand observer coverage to better monitor turtle capture in surface longline fisheries, and, if not, why not?

💬 Hon DAVID PARKER: In terms of the observers being real people, no, and I would observe that the vast majority—I think it’s about 80 percent of reported turtle captures—are reported by fishers themselves without observers. We think the way to increase the coverage and monitoring of these fisheries is through cameras on boats, which will achieve far higher levels of observational coverage than has been able to be achieved through people until now.

💬 Hon Eugenie Sage: How many captures and deaths of endangered leatherback turtles by surface longline fishing in New Zealand waters does he consider are too many, when the global leatherback turtle population fell by 95 percent in the last two decades of the 20th century?

💬 Hon DAVID PARKER: As I’ve said before, I’m certainly concerned by the data that has been produced on turtle captures, and I am supportive of measures to reduce that.

Question No. 12—Police

12. to the Minister of Police: Does he stand by all his actions and policies relating to youth crime?

Yes.

💬 Chris Baillie: Is the Government’s Small Retailer Crime Prevention Fund still being trialled with a small group of businesses; if so, when will a wider group of businesses be able to access this funding?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: There is funding available now. Only a small number of businesses have access to the fund so far. I think five have had improvements completed as a result of being able to access the fund so far. This, of course, is not the only thing that we’re doing in that area, though—for example, a thousand fog cannons have been installed. I think, of that thousand, 999 have been installed; one, apparently, there are some installation issues with, but the rest of that programme has more or less been completed. It is important to note, however, that these are, if you like, response measures, because the ultimate goal has to be to reduce that level of offending in the first place.

💬 Chris Baillie: What proportion of youth ram raiders are being identified and having enforcement action taken against them?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: The investigations are ongoing. I can’t give the member the numbers as a proportion, but I can certainly give him some overall numbers. In terms of just ram raids, so looking exclusively at ram raids, 38 offenders have been identified or arrested, and I can tell him that almost all of them are under the age of 18. The median age is 15. A further 27 offenders have been identified using CCTV, and police are currently working to figure out who they are. If we look at the overall National Retail Investigation Support Unit, which, of course, will include a little bit more than just the ram raids, there have been 43 offenders charged with 307 offences.

💬 Chris Baillie: Is there a specific offence code for ram raids; if not, will he commit to creating one so that the Government’s progress on this issue can be measured over time?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: The police have been able to give me good numbers on ram raids. How they code offences for their purposes is a matter for the police—it’s an operational matter. But they have been able to produce numbers around ram raids and the number of offenders who have been identified and charged.

💬 Chris Baillie: Does he agree with Police Association President Chris Cahill, who said it feels like additional Police numbers “have just been soaked up”, and does he think this comment has anything to do with the 400 percent increase in ram raids over the last five years?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I think that the increase in ram raids is concerning. It is, of course, the police’s job to follow up on those things as they are, and there are consequences for those people who are engaged in that activity.

Sorry. Normally, we get a bit of a sign because the member puts his mask back on. I was just waiting for—that concludes oral questions.