Oral Questions

1. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government’s statements and actions?

Yes, particularly the Government’s support for New Zealanders during the current volatile and uncertain environment. This has enabled us to boost the incomes of seniors and students and low-income families, while a million New Zealanders are receiving the winter energy payment. From next Monday, the targeted cost of living payment will deliver around $27 a week for roughly 2 million low and middle income New Zealanders, and will be paid in three instalments. In response to high fuel prices, we’ve cut the fuel excise duty and road-user charges and have halved the public transport cost until the end of January next year. These measures are temporary and targeted to those who are finding it toughest, and will seek to mitigate the underlying drivers of high inflation, such as global energy volatility. New Zealand is in a strong position to support households and businesses. Unemployment is low, exports are growing, and Government debt is substantially below many other nations we would compare ourselves to. There is no single or easy solution, but we’ll continue to provide targeted support to New Zealanders in these challenging times.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Why are fewer than one in two children in New Zealand attending school regularly, and what has her Government done other than announce a strategy to actually turn things around?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I’d note that, actually, school attendance we have seen decline in since 2015. I note that a select committee in Parliament recently had a look at some of the contributing factors to that decline, and the significant changes in the way that we manage truancy as a result of the National Government’s reforms in 2013 have been seen to be a contributing factor. That is not to say the fact that we have had a decline since 2015—COVID has made it worse.

💬 Chris Bishop: No.

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Apparently, COVID is not a contributing factor to attendance issues or illness—I find that striking. I would point to the fact that the member is drawing the numbers that he is referring to from a Ministry of Education report that shows that in the first week of term 1, around 90 percent of students were attending school in person nationally. It does point to the impact that COVID and absences have had, but that has not stopped Government investment to turn around attendance issues.

💬 Christopher Luxon: How can she say that this is COVID-driven when the data shows that only half of the increase in non-attendance between term 4 last year and term 1 is driven by sickness, and children isolating at home are marked as attending?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I point, again, to the fact that if you look right at the beginning of term 1, we had up to 90 percent attendance. You can see the impact that isolation, illness, fear of COVID and the spread of COVID has had on decision making by families. We have not stood still in the face of that: $50 million in the Urgent Response Fund in 2020, $20 million for the Attendance Service in Budget 2021, $15 million on an Auckland re-engagement package post-Delta, and the $88 million attendance package in Budget 2022. I would point out that on top of that, we have an aspiration—we’ve set our targets to get attendance back up to pre-2015 levels, when, I note, the decline under the National Government began.

💬 Hon Chris Hipkins: Can the Prime Minister confirm that an individual student would only need to miss more than five days in a school term in order to be regarded, under the official statistics that the Opposition leader just quoted, as “not regularly attending”?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Yes, regular attendance is defined as 90 percent, or nine out of 10 days. Given the season that we’re in at present, with some of the worst seasonal illnesses that we have seen in decades, there is no question that it has had an impact on attendance. That is on top of the decline we’ve seen since 2015, and I would ask for a little self-reflection around the impacts of the changes to attendance services, which took away from the ability of schools and communities to work on attendance issues, to a national model which obviously did not help. We have invested in turning around those services, and are committed to seeing attendance—regular attendance—return to those pre-2015 levels. [Interruption]

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she accept that—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! The Minister for Pacific Peoples will stand and apologise. It’s bad enough that he interjected, but to take his mask off in order to interject was outrageous.

💬 Hon Aupito William Sio: I apologise.

💬 SPEAKER: And I think, while we’ve got this, we had some experience yesterday of what happened when members did not come to order when asked. Clearly, it will be more serious if the same thing happens when the Leader of the Opposition is asking a question.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she accept that having 100,000 children chronically absent from school, missing at least three days in every 10, is a social and economic disaster in the making?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: We wouldn’t have set our targets to return attendance levels to pre-2015 levels unless we were deeply concerned about what we are seeing. As I’ve said, there’s been an issue since then. COVID has made it worse, and we’ve put the funding in to turn it around. I’d be very interested to hear the proposals the member’s had, because if he is concerned about equality issues, then clearly he would support the significant investment we have made to try and reduce child poverty and inequality in New Zealand as one of many contributing factors to attendance issues.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Why did the Government wait five years to release an attendance strategy?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I have already read out in this House, you can see we’ve been investing in attendance initiatives for some time as a Government. I would also point out that he cannot underestimate the impact of issues like removing school donations to try and reduce any barriers to participation; healthy food in schools, which, anecdotally, staff and principals report to us they see as encouraging attendance; period products in schools, so again, because we hear often from schools a concern that that can be a barrier to attendance; making sure our curriculum is keeping our young people stimulated and engaged; and access to digital devices. There is not one single thing that we must be doing; there are many. On top of that, we have recently attached significant ambitious goals to return attendance levels to where they should be.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she agree with Ministry of Social Development Bay of Plenty regional commissioner Mike Bryant, who told the Bay of Plenty Times that some of the children not attending school were simply waiting until they turn 18 so they can sign up for the benefit?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Look, I cannot directly reflect on any claims by a member about what someone may or may not have said, but what I reject is casting aspersions across those families who, from time to time, may require the support of Government for different circumstances in their lives—that that means that they lack ambition for their kids. I can tell you, in my many years of working across these issues, I see, consistently, parents who always want better for their children.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! Sorry, I’m going to let the member go, but I do want to just make it clear to the Prime Minister that unless there is evidence to the contrary, where a member does make a statement in the House, as the Leader of the Opposition did, it should be accepted.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she believe there is any connection between the increase in truancy and the increase in young people going on to a benefit that’s happened since she became Prime Minister?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I note the member doesn’t think that there’s any connection between COVID and attendance issues, which I find surprising. I, again, look at the statistics that we have that show, as a percentage of the working-age population, we have a lower percentage of New Zealanders in the working-age population drawing down benefits now than we did in the same period in the aftermath of the global financial crisis (GFC). So that demonstrates to me that when we see an economic shock—and, in fact, I would argue this is worse—you’re actually seeing lower rates relative to that period.

💬 Hon Chris Hipkins: Has the Government recently received advice suggesting that a small decline in the number of students achieving NCEA at the most senior levels has been driven by senior secondary school students leaving school early to take up paid employment because of low unemployment rates?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Yes, and, of course, you would expect that. In these periods you do see, for instance, fewer, often, taking up skills and trade training, because they have employment opportunities. That has not stopped us from seeing, since we came into Government, 190,000 people taking up free apprenticeships and targeted trade training—a 55 percent increase in the number of apprentices since the pandemic—and I know that, given the member is very outcomes-focused, 3,100 young people are in employment or training because of He Poutama Rangatahi, and 4,700 in employment because of Mana in Mahi. These are young people taking the opportunities available to them in meaningful training and education.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Can she explain why, with staff shortages in almost every sector, the number of Kiwis under 25 on jobseeker support for longer than a year has doubled under this Government?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: You look at the unemployment rates, for instance, in areas where we’ve traditionally seen a greater burden in an economic crisis on Māori and Pacific—something like half the rate of the unemployment levels we saw post-GFC. Do we have work to do as a nation for disparities for young people who are NEETs? For Pasifika and Māori we do, but relative to previous economic crises, you can see the difference that a specific focus in investment, as this Government has made, has made on those outcomes.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Isn’t it the case that with widespread labour shortages, job seeker numbers should be at record lows, not 50,000 higher than when she became Prime Minister?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, I come back to the point of comparison that makes the most sense in these times—even though I would argue the COVID economic recovery is far more difficult in scale and quantum, and you see that globally, than, necessarily, the GFC—and we still have record numbers of people coming off benefits and into work, and we still see a lower percentage of the working-age population on Government support. At the same time, we are working very hard to reform our skills and trade training sector to make sure that they are meeting the needs of employers and our young people. But given the member’s focused on outputs, I’m sure he would be interested—again, referring to the numbers of the significant increase in trades training, whereas in the GFC, we saw those sectors bottom out, and we are still paying the price.

Question No. 2—Finance

2. to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?

The resilience of the New Zealand economy and the Government’s responsible financial management are reflected in the latest Crown accounts. For the 11 months to the end of May, the operating balance before gains and losses, OBEGAL, deficit was $7.7 billion, $5.5 billion below that forecast in Budget 2022 in May. Net debt was 16.6 percent of GDP, $4.3 billion higher than forecast, mainly due to weaker market conditions affecting the financial portfolio held by the New Zealand super fund and ACC derivatives. The Treasury did note that when the new debt measure was put in place, it would move around more than our previous measure, and New Zealand’s level of debt remains one of the lowest in the OECD. New Zealand is in a strong financial position to support New Zealanders as we face a number of global challenges.

💬 Helen White: What other reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well, Statistics New Zealand reported that exports rose 7.7 percent to $6.4 billion in June, compared with the same month a year ago. The main contribution came from the red meat sector, with overseas sales rising 19 percent to $964 million on the back of higher beef and sheep prices. Dairy products rose 7.1 percent to $1.7 billion—

💬 Barbara Kuriger: Primary sector does it again.

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: —led by higher prices for milk powder, butter and cheese. I’m pleased Ms Kuriger’s listening! On an annual basis, exports rose 11.9 percent to $67.6 billion. The export sector is continuing to show its resilience in a volatile global environment.

💬 Helen White: What reports has he seen on the international context for the New Zealand economy?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The IMF released updated projections for the international economy overnight, revising down its global growth forecast for 2022 and 2023 and raising its inflation estimates. The IMF have said that this reflects weaker growth in the United States, China, and the euro area due to the pandemic, the war in Ukraine, and tightening financial conditions, and the IMF raise the prospect of a more pronounced slow-down. As I’ve said previously, slowing growth among our trading partners will affect New Zealand’s prospects. Economists are currently forecasting that New Zealand’s economy will slow from what we have experienced, and these forecasts will continue to be updated as new data comes in. But despite a declining outlook for the global economy, New Zealand does find itself in one of the strongest positions in the world to support New Zealanders as we navigate our way through these uncertain times.

Question No. 3—Housing

3. to the Minister of Housing: Is she satisfied with the Government’s progress on accessible public housing?

Yes. As already outlined, the Government is committed to ensuring that at least 15 percent of Kāinga Ora new-build public homes will include universal design features. We’re the first Government in New Zealand’s history to have a target for accessible public homes, and we’re delivering, building more homes that include full universal design features than ever before. The Government intends to deliver at least 1,000 fully universally designed homes by the end of the public housing plan, around half of which will be completed by the end of this financial year, with the remaining homes being delivered the following year. We’re making good progress and will continue working towards Labour’s target of 25 percent of new builds with universal design features to ensure that our public housing portfolio meets the needs of disabled people in New Zealand.

💬 Jan Logie: What feedback, if any, has she received about disabled people’s satisfaction with accessible housing targets and progress towards them?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: The feedback that I have received in my capacity as the Minister of Housing and Urban Development is that they’re pleased that there finally is a Government that has a strategy in place, that has targets, and is actually delivering homes that are meeting full universal design features.

💬 Jan Logie: Is it true that Kāinga Ora’s full universal design standard allows for homes to be built without step-free entrances?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: That is not my understanding. I think it is important to understand the proportion of new builds that are going through in terms of the universal design feature. There are a number of homes that we do not include in the 15 percent target that meet some of the elements of universal design but cannot be deemed meeting full universal design features, nor does it include the retrofits of existing properties. So I’d have to look at the details of the particular property that the member is talking about.

💬 Jan Logie: Is it true most international standards relating to universal design, including the New Zealand Lifemark standard, require at least one step-free entrance into the home now and not in the future, which is what is in the full universal design standard of Kāinga Ora?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: I repeat to the member: the 15 percent target is meeting the full New Zealand universal design feature. As I said, there are properties that do not meet that threshold and are not included in that figure.

💬 Jan Logie: Does she agree that it is unacceptable to deprioritise disabled people’s needs and rights in order to save Government money, and if so, will she ensure Kāinga Ora does not remove accessibility improvements from their retrofit programme?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: In answer to the first part of the question, yes, of course I believe that it is important that we’re providing housing for disabled peoples. That is why we are the first Government in New Zealand’s history to have a strategy and a delivery of homes that meet the needs of our disabled peoples.

💬 Jan Logie: Will she ensure Kāinga Ora does not remove accessibility improvements from their retrofit programme?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: The accessibility improvements in our retrofit programme will continue. Whether or not that meets universal design standards is something that we need to continue to consider, because, of course, the cost of doing a retrofit is much higher than actually building it into new builds. One of the challenges that we face is that for a 10-year period between 2007 and 2017, there was not a renewal programme for the 45,000 Kāinga Ora—then Housing New Zealand—houses that needed renewal. We’re on a much steeper slope of having to do those renewal costs, and I would point out to the member that the maintenance cost of a new home is $4,000 a year for Kāinga Ora as opposed to $12,000 for one that has not gone through the renewal process. This is costing Kāinga Ora about $70 million a year across our whole portfolio. So not only are we paying for the damage done in not building new houses or selling houses but not renewing the stock we had; it’s costing more in operating funding.

Question No. 4—Building and Construction

4. to the Minister for Building and Construction: What progress is being made to reduce critical shortages in the supply of plasterboard?

Since forming the task force last month to help resolve the plasterboard shortage, good progress is being made. There are now four alternative plasterboard products that meet the requirements of the building code—three of which meet standards for fire, water, and, importantly, bracing. The fourth meets fire and water, and bracing will be included in the 5 August update on the guidance. This will reduce any reluctance to specify them in plans or approve their use in building consents and product substitutions. There are now also 12 importers of plasterboard—four of whom are new entrants. And about 100 containers are currently on their way to New Zealand, holding approximately 220,000 square metres of plasterboard—enough for around 440 complete homes. These containers will be arriving in the coming weeks. We know there is more work to be done, but I want to thank the members of the task force for working at pace to provide significant progress on this problem.

💬 Jamie Strange: What actions has the Government taken to improve the availability and ability to use alternative plasterboard products?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: On Friday, a step-by-step product substitution guide for plasterboard merchants and builders is being rolled out to enable switching to alternatives. This kind of practical guidance is what is needed to provide confidence to the market. I’ve also written to building-consent authorities, today, to ensure their organisations are engaged on the issue and freely allowing product substitutions.

💬 Jamie Strange: What else has the Government done to encourage more plasterboard alternatives to enter the New Zealand market?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: We heard from the task force members that one of the challenges importers faced was having confidence that there would be demand for alternatives, given the historical dominance of Gib in New Zealand. To help provide confidence of future demand, stimulate additional imports, and take pressure of domestic supply chains, Kāinga Ora (KO) is procuring alternative plasterboard product for its retrofit programme. This means that over the next 12 months of retrofits—about 400 houses’ worth—the KO supply agreement is in place already, and the first product is expected to be going into KO homes in August, leaving more in the market for others and underpinning confidence in how easily alternative products can be substituted.

💬 Jamie Strange: What feedback has she received on progress to date?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: I’ve heard about the importance of making product substitution easier from task force member and developers, like Shane Brealey of New Zealand, who is quoted in the media as saying, “As far as taskforces go, it’s already been effective in terms of what it’s charged to do. We’ve been working well with MBIE [and its] been very helpful,” and “This is about making sure territorial authorities understand what equivalent products should be accepted—not so much removing the word Gib from consent documents.” I’ve also heard positive feedback from the sector, including half of the respondents to an MBIE survey stating they were confident or very confident when making decisions on plasterboard substitutions. We want to see that number further improve.

Question No. 5—Finance

5. to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with ANZ that “high inflation is likely to remain with us for some time yet”; if so, does he still stand by his May statement that “the short term challenge of inflation is significant”?

The context of ANZ’s comment was in a note that said that the 7.3 percent Consumers Price Index (CPI) reading for the June quarter would be the peak in inflation and that the annual CPI would fall back to within the 1 to 3 percent target band in the December 2023 quarter. I do agree that this is generally where various forecasters, including ANZ, currently sit. In response to the second part of the member’s question, I repeat what I said to her when she asked that question of me previously: “The challenge of inflation is particularly harsh in the short term because we are seeing a spike that is decades high. The Treasury forecast that the spike will come off in the second half of 2022, and then, as the member states, go back to the 1 to 3 percent band by 2025. None of that takes away from the pressure that puts on households now and into the future, and that is why the Government is supporting them.”, and I do stand by that. It is worth noting that we can take away from these two statements that ANZ’s latest CPI forecast has inflation coming back into the 1 to 3 percent band a year earlier than the Treasury was forecasting in May.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does he agree with the Governor of the Reserve Bank that the Monetary Policy Committee’s decisions over recent years have influenced a 32-year high in New Zealand’s inflation rate, and will he endorse calls by MPs across Parliament for a select committee inquiry into the economic response to COVID-19?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: It is not my practice to comment particularly on the specific statements of the Reserve Bank Governor. Obviously, he is a member of that Monetary Policy Committee and he is speaking on behalf of them.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does he stand by his statement in September last year that a more comprehensive evaluation of the economic response to COVID-19 should be considered, and, if so, why won’t he support an inquiry into the response?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I do stand by that statement, and as the Prime Minister indicated yesterday, there will be a time and a place for a comprehensive overview of the Government’s response. Right now, however, is not that time and place. What I would, however, note to the member is the many, many occasions on which the Reserve Bank and others have been in front of both her on the Finance and Expenditure Committee and also the Epidemic Response Committee. There are many occasions—perhaps more than a dozen occasions—when that has happened, so it’s not that the response has been without scrutiny. At some point, an overview will be warranted.

Chlöe Swarbrick: Does the Minister stand by his statement in December 2021, in response to my questions at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, that a review of the COVID economic response is “an ongoing process”, and, if so, does he think that that process could benefit from being transparent and open in, say, a parliamentary inquiry in front of a select committee with representation from all parties?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I do stand by that statement. There are a number of organisations and entities that have looked at the Government’s response both from an economic and a fiscal point of view. As I noted, the Finance and Expenditure Committee has had many opportunities to do that over recent times and will have more. There will be a time for an overview of the whole approach, and that time will come soon, I’m sure.

💬 Nicola Willis: When will it be the right time and place for a full evaluation of the economic response, and can he confirm that he intends to kick for touch until after the election?

💬 SPEAKER: Order! The member had at least four questions in there.

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As I’ve already said, I’m sure that time will come, but the committee that the member is part of has had numerous opportunities. If she doesn’t feel that she’s been able to get across the points that she wanted to on, for instance, 9 December 2020, 10 February 2021, 25 February 2021, 27 May 2021, 19 August 2021, 3 November 2021, 25 November 2021, 15 December 2021, 24 February 2022, 5 May 2022, or 26 May 2022, the member will have other opportunities.

💬 Nicola Willis: Doesn’t the Minister think it’s a little disingenuous to say that a 45-minute session with the Reserve Bank Governor, dominated by questions from Government members, is a full evaluation of the Reserve Bank’s response, and when will he kick off a full evaluation?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I have full confidence in the Finance and Expenditure Committee to do their job.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! This member has at least another three supplementaries on this—two extras—as a result of the noise from the Government backbench.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does he agree with Treasury’s assessment in March that while there are one-off elements to inflation, there is also a widespread inflation dynamic that risks becoming persistent, and what is he doing to stop it becoming persistent?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I certainly agree that the way that inflation has been playing out over the course of this year does bear the scrutiny that the Reserve Bank is giving it. The member knows that monetary policy is the main tool by which any administration looks after inflation. From a fiscal policy point of view, we stand by the responses we made to COVID and we stand by the fact that as we move forward from here, Government expenditure as a percentage of GDP will return to the long-run average of 30 percent. We had to do what we had to do during COVID, and the member and members opposite asked us to do that and, on occasion, asked us to do significantly more than that.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does he agree with Treasury that inflation accelerates the process of fiscal drag, where workers are dragged into higher tax brackets even if their real incomes haven’t increased, and will he take action to stop Kiwis being fleeced twice by inflation—once by high prices and again by the tax department?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: What we will do is ensure that Government spending continues to support New Zealanders through a very difficult and challenging time, and balance that about making sure that we keep levels of net debt as they are—among the lowest in the developed world—and that we return the books to surplus in 2024-25 year, a year ahead of when National did that after the global financial crisis, and that Government spending will return to 30 percent of GDP. These things need to be balanced out.

💬 Hon David Parker: Point of order, Mr Speaker. You awarded the National Party three extra supplementaries. Given that there were five legs to that last supplementary, could you provide guidance as to whether they’ve been used?

💬 SPEAKER: I’m living in hope that members will work out that supplementary questions should only have two legs and that Ministers only need to answer one of those two legs. I think in an earlier five-legged question, the Minister managed to give a very full answer to one of them, so I’ll leave it to him. The member has one more supplementary. I would just love it if she could get it in order.

💬 Nicola Willis: Has he seen a recent survey of New Zealand business owners which found that 70 percent said they had no confidence in the current Government and its ability to steer the country through the economic downturn, and will he listen to those businesses or will he continue to reject their concerns?

💬 SPEAKER: Again, three at least.

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I don’t believe I’ve seen that particular survey. What I have, however, done over the course of the last 2½ years is work very closely with New Zealand businesses to make sure that we as a Government supported them to get through one of the most difficult times in New Zealand’s economic history. I know that that has been appreciated. I know that they have been hard through that period—they’ve been tough—and we’ve supported them to do that. They definitely haven’t been soft, Mr Luxon.

Question No. 6—Finance

6. to the Minister of Finance: Why did the Crown provide an indemnity to the Reserve Bank against losses from the Large-Scale Asset Purchase programme, and what is the Crown’s maximum liability that it could be forced to pay the bank as a result of the programme?

The Large Scale Asset Purchase (LSAP) programme was part of a range of measures that the Reserve Bank took in the early stages of 2020. This was done as part of a coordinated fiscal and monetary policy response to the pressing economic conditions that New Zealand and the global economy was facing at the time. The steps that we took to support the economy in the teeth of that crisis were crucial to New Zealand’s strong economic recovery from COVID-19. The indemnity was recommended by Treasury because the policy was seen to be in the public interest and to ensure that the policy could be implemented. Interest rates have shifted since that time and, as with our fiscal response, there are costs associated with the measures that the Reserve Bank took. The latest estimates from Treasury of this cost are around $8.46 billion. However, the economic and social costs of not providing that support at the time is something that the member might want to reflect on. The specifics of the indemnity are not set in dollar terms; rather, the limits of the indemnity are set by the percentage of bonds on issue in the period of time in which purchases can be made. With the benefit of hindsight, the member may disagree with decisions that were taken in 2020, but that is a privilege of those who did not have to make those decisions at the time.

💬 David Seymour: With the benefit of hindsight, does the Minister, who did make the decision, regret putting taxpayers on the hook for nearly $5,000 per household, making good the indemnity he gave the Reserve Bank to buy $54 billion of Government bonds, which he then spent?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I do not regret the decision that we made. We made the decision because the economic and social costs of not making that decision looked to be things like a 10 percent unemployment rate and more than $100 billion going out of the New Zealand economy. The member may have 2020 hindsight or be Nostradamus and be able to predict what interest rates might have been two years from March 2020. We weren’t in that position. I back the decisions we took.

💬 David Seymour: Does the Minister agree with the Reserve Bank that “New Zealand Government bond yields were at least 0.5 percent and potentially more than 1 percent lower than they would have been without the LSAP programme.”?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As I said in answer to an earlier question, I don’t tend to comment on the Reserve Bank forecasts in that regard. They are in a position to make those forecasts. I’d want to contrast them with other economic commentators before I made any specific comment on that.

💬 David Seymour: Did the Minister receive advice on the cost of Government borrowing without the Large Scale Asset Purchase programme, and, if so, was it the case that he promised the taxpayer would indemnify the Reserve Bank against any losses to reduce the interest costs of his Government’s spending?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: No, in answer to the second part of the question, because the reason that we did put the indemnity in place was to make sure that a policy that was regarded as being important to ensure the New Zealand economy withstood a one-in-100-year economic shock was able to be implemented.

💬 David Seymour: Has the finance Minister had any advice on how much money was made by brokers who bought Government bonds off the Government’s Debt Management Office and then sold them to the Reserve Bank under the Large Scale Asset Purchase programme, and, if so, can he confirm it was over $200 million in profit and that many of the transactions were bought and sold in the same week?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: In answer to the first part of the question, I do not recall any such advice, but I would have to go back and check. What I would say to the member is that the Reserve Bank of New Zealand was not alone in undertaking alternative monetary policy responses to this crisis—the Reserve Bank of Australia, the Federal Reserve, the Bank of England, the Bank of Canada. In the case of the latter two, they also had indemnities from Government.

Question No. 7—Immigration

7. to the Minister of Immigration: What recent reports has he seen about critical workforce support for Kiwi businesses?

I continue to receive updates across the range of initiatives the Government has under way to address the immediate skill shortages in New Zealand and speed up our economic recovery. Since April 2020, through the critical purpose work visa, we’ve approved visas for nearly 38,000 people across a range of critical workforces. Through this visa, nearly 6,000 critical health workers have entered the country to bolster the health workforce and support our COVID response. Through the residency 2021 programme, a total of 73,291 people currently onshore have been approved for residency and, from Monday next week, New Zealand will fully reopen to tourist, visitor and student visas from around the world, marking the final step in our process of reconnecting New Zealand with the world. The Government’s doing the work to make sure that New Zealand is well positioned to speed up our economic recovery, address worker shortages, and set up our immigration system for a sustainable future.

💬 Marja Lubeck: How do these measures address global workforce challenges?

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: There’s no doubt that New Zealand, like other countries, is facing challenges in filling skill gaps in some key industries, brought about as a result of the global pandemic and low unemployment, and also as a result of past under-investment in skills training and an overreliance on low-paid migrant labour over recent decades. Through the immigration rebalance, we’ve carefully designed a system that provides pathways to residence for a range of critical roles, while simplifying and streamlining settings, and ensuring that wages and working conditions for migrant workers are decent and fair. This is a Government that’s focused on lifting wages and conditions for all workers and, in doing so, making New Zealand a more attractive destination to live and work.

💬 Marja Lubeck: How is the Government supporting the New Zealand workforce through the high quality investment for migrants?

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: Last week, the Government announced changes to New Zealand’s investor visa settings to attract experienced, high-value investors, and bring growth opportunities to domestic businesses by incentivising active investment into New Zealand. Active investment generates more high-skill jobs and economic growth, compared to passive investment under the previous settings. This new visa category will also leverage the skills, experience and networks of migrants, who will bring their access to global networks and global markets to help Kiwi companies grow faster and smarter, and create jobs for New Zealanders.

💬 Erica Stanford: Can the Minister confirm that only one nurse has applied for a visa under the new green list settings since the announcement in May?

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: I can update the member and the House that, under the job check settings, under the Accredited Employer Work Visa, there have been a total of 1,064 applications for health workers received and, over the last week or so, 137 of them have been approved including—I’m advised as of today—one batch of 50 nurses.

Question No. 8—Health

8. to the Minister of Health: How many people, if any, waited longer than four months to see a specialist, and how many, if any, waited longer than four months for surgery, in the 12 months to June 30 this year?

I’ve been advised that as at 31 May this year, 35,522 are recorded as waiting longer than four months for a first specialist appointment, and 27,356 people are recorded as waiting longer than four months for treatment. For completeness, over the last three years, there have been increases and decreases in the planned-care waiting lists because of the way COVID-19 has affected the country. For example, after the response to the initial outbreak in 2020, we saw waiting times increase because of lockdowns. Then, as restrictions eased, waiting times reduced. Then, following the Delta and Omicron and outbreaks, waiting times increased. As hospitals have responded to the worst flu season in living memory this winter, waiting times have continued to increase. To address this issue, the planned-care task force, set up earlier this year, has provided initial advice on steps hospitals can take to reduce waiting lists. That initial advice is now reflected in a directive from the Chief Executive of Te Whatu Ora - Health New Zealand to district and regional directors last week, requiring immediate action to, amongst other things, identify the patients waiting longer than 12 months for their first specialist appointment; to make sure that they receive an appointment, in order of clinical priority, by 30 September this year; create significant capacity by eliminating unnecessary follow ups; actively use outsourced and out-placed theatre, endoscopy, and radiology capacity to maximise care over the winter period; and, where practical, offering patients the opportunity to receive their care outside their local district.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: Does he stand by his answer to written questions showing the wait list for surgery had already increased by thousands, or over 600 percent, in this Government’s first two years in office, before COVID-19 even arrived?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I refer the member to my answer to his primary question which is that waiting times have fluctuated over the last few years. But there is no question that COVID-19 has had a hugely detrimental impact on the ability of our hospital system to schedule people their planned care as they would wish to have it.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: Does he believe he’s doing a good job in health when revelations from the New Zealand Nurses Organisation today said that, in an overall effort to manage wait lists, Dunedin Hospital called in student nurses who “were unlikely to have been on a hospital ward before.”, and then paid for their work with supermarket vouchers?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: Two points on that. Once upon a time, 20 or so years ago, all student nurses spent most of their time working in a hospital—that’s how we trained our nurses. We spend more time training nurses in polytechs now, but, actually, the critical element of their learning is to spend time in a hospital while they qualify to get their registration. The second point is, and I’ve made it clear, if anybody is employed in a hospital to do the work of a healthcare assistant, and we have many of them in our hospital system, they should be paid as a healthcare assistant.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: How, then, can New Zealanders have any confidence in his leadership of their healthcare system when one of these students was quoted as saying, “Honestly, I felt very unprepared for this shift—I had no idea what I was doing.”?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: Well, I refer the member to my previous answer, in that, once upon a time, all nurses, all people training to be nurses, before they got their registration, worked in hospitals and did extensive hours in hospital—that’s the way we trained nurses. And, in fact, that is the way we continue to train some nurses, too. Probably one of the most common comments I get from a lot of people, including registered nurses, is: why we can’t get more enrolled nurses? And I think that’s a very important suggestion that we can pick up on. But, if the member is asking what I am pleased about in the time that I’ve been Minister of Health, I am very pleased to have led reforms in a system that means that we can now do what we could never do before, which was coordinate and get in behind the hospital management to actually address the longstanding problems, which, right now, includes growing waiting lists.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: Is the President of the New Zealand Orthopaedic Association correct when he states “The number of people waiting for elective surgery [is] much worse than the numbers released by the Government”, or is he speaking with the same forked tongue that the Minister accused the Nurses Organisation—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! The member will now apologise.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: I apologise.

Question No. 9—Justice

9. to the Minister of Justice: What legislation is the Government progressing to reduce delays in the Family Court?

The Government is committed to improving access to justice. It’s one of our primary objectives. The Family Court (Family Court Associates) Legislation Bill was introduced in the House on 5 July 2022, and it establishes a new role in the Family Court to help free up judge time to enable judges to focus on progressing case work and progressing substantive matters more quickly. The bill is based on one of the recommendations made in the 2019 report Te Korowai Ture ā-Whānau, which found that judges’ high administrative workload was a contributor to delays in the Family Court. So we want Family Court judges to be able to concentrate on progressing cases through the court instead of on time-consuming administrative matters, and the Family Court Associate roles will help them to do just that.

💬 Dr Emily Henderson: What will these changes mean for those going through the Family Court process?

💬 Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: Delay in the Family Court can have negative effects on parents and their tamariki, including uncertainty, stress, and deepening parental conflict that can have long-term mental health impacts on children. The Family Court Associate will take on work at the early stages of proceedings in administrative work known as “box work”—for example, appointing a lawyer for child or a lawyer to assist the court in various interlocutory matters. By taking on some of the judges’ workload, this new role will help reduce delay and its harmful effects, with the Ministry of Justice estimating that the Family Court Associate role will save up to 25 percent of judicial time.

💬 Dr Emily Henderson: What other work is under way to improve the Family Court system?

💬 Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: Work on the Government response to Te Korowai Ture ā-Whānau report is well advanced, including the reinstatement of legal representation in the early stages of a Care of Children Act 2004 proceeding in the Family Court, establishing the Kaiārahi - Family Court Navigator role to help parents and whānau to navigate the family justice system, increasing lawyer for child remuneration to support the retention of skilled practitioners, giving children and young people better opportunities to participate in decision making which affects them, and a multi-year work programme to improve the court experience for people affected by family violence and sexual violence. Budget 2022 also provided a significant and transformative investment of $148.7 million over four years into the legal aid system to improve access to justice, including the Family Court.

Question No. 10—Education

10. to the Minister of Education: Does he stand by his statement regarding the Te Pūkenga forecast deficit of $110 million, “I’ve also been clear the projected deficit was too high and that more work needed to be done there”; if so, what work has been done to reduce the deficit?

Yes, I stand by the quote in the full context in which it was made, which included me going on to say that the approach that we inherited would lock in deficits and not fix underlying issues. Under the old model, long-term deficits were projected. My concern about Te Pūkenga’s projected deficit is shared by the leadership of the organisation. They’ve already taken the following actions to reduce the deficit: hiring restrictions have been put in place across the group, a directive has been put in place for subsidiaries to put in place cost mitigation strategies and prudent cost control measures, a central review of procurement is being undertaken to establish what additional savings can be achieved, and further work is being undertaken to improve the financial reporting and the accuracy of the forecasts that are produced to identify further areas of savings. The acting chief executive is keeping me regularly informed, and I’m encouraged by the conversations we’ve had so far.

💬 Penny Simmonds: Does the Minister consider a nationwide launch of Te Pūkenga branding at a cost of over $20 million would be a good use of taxpayer money?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: The member’s figures include regular marketing that would have taken place regardless of which brand it was undertaken under.

💬 Penny Simmonds: Does the Minister consider Te Pūkenga’s contract with ad agency Clemenger BBDO of between $3.3 and $4.5 million is a good use of taxpayer money?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Well, I think the member raises a really good illustration of the kind of efficiencies that Te Pūkenga can gain by operating nationally. Each individual polytech used to do its own marketing, going and contracting its own marketing agencies; now they can actually get better value for money by doing it across the country.

💬 Penny Simmonds: Will the Minister rule out hundreds of redundancies in the polytechnics as a means of realising Te Pūkenga’s acting chief executive Peter Winder’s comment, “The organisation is identifying significant savings.”?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I fully expect the organisation to be identifying significant savings that can be made. And we do need to acknowledge the fact that there has been a significant downturn in the number of students that are enrolled in the provider-based arm of Te Pūkenga at the moment. There have, however, been increases in the number of students who have been enrolled in work-based training, so there will be probably additional employment opportunities in that area. I do expect Te Pūkenga will be making changes in that regard to reflect the changing enrolment patterns that they’re seeing.

💬 Penny Simmonds: What is the Minister’s response to comments from former deputy chief executive of Te Pūkenga Merran Davis, “I have no confidence in the current leadership to fix problems given where things are at.”, and, “It’s like everyone is in Disneyland.”?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: The individual concerned is one who I have a lot of respect for. I think she did a very good job at Unitec when she picked up the reins after a massive financial crisis was left behind there by the outgoing National Government.

💬 Simeon Brown: It’s a Mickey Mouse outfit.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! I think the member might reflect on what he just called a Mickey Mouse outfit.

Question No. 11—Police

11. to the Minister of Police: Is he satisfied with the Police’s firearms administration ability, given there were over 3,000 licensed firearms owners waiting at least four months for their licence renewals in June 2022, and does he believe that licensed firearms owners should be satisfied with these wait times too?

While I’ve got confidence in the Police’s ability to manage the current wait list, I acknowledge that for some law-abiding firearms licence holders, the delays they’re currently experiencing are frustrating and they shouldn’t have to be satisfied with that. We do need to get our licensing regime to one that’s timely, fair, and, frankly, that’s operating in a 21st century manner, and there is still more work to do. I acknowledge that there is also an important job to be done in clearing the current backlog before we see a significant increase in demand over the coming years as a result of the move to 10-year licensing some time ago.

💬 Nicole McKee: Is he aware that some pistol owners are prevented from fulfilling their legal requirement to attend a pistol club 12 times a year, because they are having to wait so long for Police to renew their endorsement?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I thank the member for her question. I am aware that there are some issues with the delays. That is something that I’ve been in conversations with the Police about, particularly around how they can better triage licence applications so that where there’s a pressing need—for example, where it is difficult for people to comply where there’s an employment-related reason—for the firearms renewal to be fast tracked, they are doing that. I’ve certainly been having those conversations with the Police.

💬 Nicole McKee: Is he comfortable with the idea of licensed firearms owners taking their guns out of their safes, placing them in the boot of their car, and having them drive around the country to store them in the safes of other licensed firearms owners, to avoid breaking the law because the expiry means they’re no longer allowed to store them themselves?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: That is an issue that I’m concerned about and it is one that I’ve been having conversations with the Police about.

💬 Nicole McKee: Does he accept that these delays are causing a significant number of licensed firearms owners to unwillingly break the law and may well increase the chances of firearms falling into criminal hands?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I do accept that at the moment the Police are under a lot of pressure when it comes to firearms licence renewals and new applications as well, and that is a result of the decisions that this Parliament has made to make it more difficult for people to get firearms licences and to have their licences renewed. We did that for some very, very good reasons, but we also have to get the balance right, and I acknowledge that at the moment the current delays that people are experiencing are not something that we should be willing to accept and that we should be striving to ensure that the delays are cleared as quickly as we can and that we get the system to one where licence applications and renewals are processed in a timely manner so that people don’t experience those sorts of delays in the future.

💬 Nicole McKee: Will he consider issuing firearms licence extensions, as the Government did previously because of delays due to COVID-19?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I wouldn’t rule those sorts of measures out at this point.

Question No. 12—Emergency Management

12. to the Minister for Emergency Management: How is NEMA (National Emergency Management Agency) helping to build a safe and resilient New Zealand which is ready to respond to emergencies?

May I begin by acknowledging the emergency management professionals and volunteers that have been working hard to support communities through the severe weather events of the past week. I must also acknowledge the impact that this severe weather has had on individuals, businesses, and farming communities. I’ve been in contact with the mayors of the affected districts, who are reporting that their local emergency management operations are responding well. Our emergency management system has been strengthened in recent years, with the National Emergency Management Agency leading the work to put people and communities at the heart of our system and decision making. The Government has substantially increased NEMA’s ability to support New Zealand communities in the event of natural disasters and other emergencies.

Tāmati Coffey: What steps has the Government taken to protect New Zealand from significant emergency events?

💬 Hon KIERAN McANULTY: In addition to establishing the National Geohazards Monitoring Centre, deploying a network of Deep-ocean Assessment and Reporting of Tsunamis buoys to provide early warning of tsunamis and storm surges, establishing emergency management assistant teams who can be flown around the country to provide support to local responses, rolling out the Emergency Mobile Alerts system, and opening NEMA’s 24/7 Monitoring, Alerting and Reporting Centre. We are also improving Kiwis’ preparedness in the event of a tsunami with the launch of Aotearoa’s first nationwide tsunami evacuation map. This map enables Kiwis to enter their address to find out if they are in a tsunami evacuation zone, and where to go to stay safe. It then provides in-depth local evacuation information. This is the first time we’ve had a single map of this kind for the whole country.

Tāmati Coffey: What feedback has the Minister received from rural and provincial councils on the emergency management system?

💬 Hon KIERAN McANULTY: I’ve recently made visits to 22 rural and provincial councils and will have met with all 55 by early October. A consistent message I’ve been hearing is that emergency resilience is top of mind for rural communities, particularly in the face of increasingly frequent severe weather events. Mayors and councillors have emphasised how much they value the strong working relationship they have with NEMA and with their locally-based teams. It is important to note that when emergencies occur the Government is quick to respond through support to the mayoral relief fund. This supports communities with rapid access to funding for their immediate needs. And we continue to monitor, even after the weather event passes, so that we can be aware of the full extent of the impact on communities. It is critical that we continue to build up NEMA’s capability to support people and communities through these emergencies.