Oral Questions

1. to the Minister of Police: I was being kind in the hope of getting more! Does she stand by her statement, “It’s easy to use throwaway lines like ‘soft on crime’ in this space. It’s a very gendered statement”; if so, what other statements does she stand by?

Yes, and I stand by the full context of all my statements.

💬 David Seymour: Does she stand by her statement “I applaud the work that the Police are doing” about a Police report that says “Imperialism has instilled a legacy of eurocentrism, neo-liberalism, and white supremacy” and that “that had become a core component of policing delivery in the criminal justice system.”; if so, how will that research help people keep safe on the streets and in their homes?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: I do stand by my statements, and I also stand by statements by notables such as Jarrod Gilbert, who say, “Any work that is to be done in the policing state and to deal with organised crime must be evidence-based.”

💬 David Seymour: What evidence was she relying on when she agreed with that statement?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: Can I just say that I refer back to Jarrod Gilbert’s comments and statements where he says that “In order to do good policing and to be tough on crime, we should not politicise.”

💬 David Seymour: Does she stand by her statement that Te Pae Oranga, a programme which allows offenders to avoid prosecution, strengthens the Government’s “commitment to the Crown Māori relationship”, and, if so, when will she strengthen her commitment to the victims of crime?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: I do stand by that statement. Te Pae Oranga is a fantastic programme which has Kingi Tūheitia as its patron. If it is good enough for Kingi Tūheitia to support a programme that diverts our young people out of the criminal justice system, I think it’s pretty damn good.

💬 David Seymour: Does she agree with the Police Commissioner’s statement that “The 10 years before the policy change, we killed 60 people through police pursuits.”, or does she agree with front-line police officers who say they joined the Police to catch crims, not watch their tail lights disappear into the night?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: I agree with my statement, which is that “64 people lost their lives in police pursuits, and since the change in policy, no one has.”

💬 David Seymour: Do you believe that New Zealand Police officers are racist and, if not, why does she engage in so much identity politics and wokeism instead of setting them free to actually catch crims—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! No. That question’s out of order.

💬 Hon Michael Wood: Supplementary.

💬 SPEAKER: Is it a point of order?

💬 Hon Michael Wood: Supplementary. Does she stand by the Government’s policy of supporting the operational dependence of the Police and of the Police Commissioner?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: Absolutely. One hundred percent.

💬 David Seymour: Does she stand by her statement that “I’m speaking for the Māori and Pacific communities, for whom their interactions with Police over the years have not been that great.”, or would she correct herself and say she speaks for all New Zealanders, particularly the victims of crime?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: I stand by my statement that Māori and Pasifika are disproportionately impacted, and that’s why I support the Police in the work that they are doing to ensure that they understand why they stop, why they charge, and why they arrest Māori and Pasifika numbers that are disproportionate. That is a grown-up response by the Police to look at their practice, and I applaud that.

Question No. 2—Finance

2. to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?

New Zealand’s strong economic and financial position has been recognised by Moody’s Investors Service. In its annual credit analysis released yesterday, the credit rating agency notes that New Zealand has very strong institutions, sustained policy effectiveness, and a healthy fiscal position relative to its peers. They say that the New Zealand Government has a strong track record of managing shocks through effective fiscal policy while demonstrating fiscal discipline over the long term, and that they expect this to continue. They also highlight New Zealand’s ongoing economic performance relative to its peers, and that the strong economic recovery illustrates New Zealand’s resilience to the pandemic shock. While the output remains volatile, New Zealand finds itself in a good position to support New Zealanders as they deal with the challenges arising from the global energy crisis, supply chain disruptions, and the ongoing pandemic.

💬 Ingrid Leary: What other reports has he seen on economy?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The construction sector is supporting our recovery. Statistics New Zealand reported on Friday that the volume of building activity rose 3.2 percent in the March quarter, following on from a 9 percent jump in the previous December quarter. Residential construction rose 3.5 percent, while industrial and commercial building activity increased 2.7 percent. Statistics New Zealand also reported last week that annual building consents rose 18.1 percent to 50,583 compared with the previous year, only the second time ever that it has been over the 50,000 mark. Economists are expecting the momentum in the construction sector to continue despite the challenging environment that they are facing.

💬 Ingrid Leary: What do the reports say about challenges facing the construction sector?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Westpac’s economists say that businesses show that continued demand in building activity is happening over 2022, but staff and materials constraints are limiting the extent of the industry to respond further to current elevated levels. The Government has been working together with the construction sector through the construction accord on critical supply chain resilience, working on construction sector product dependencies from off shore, and options to mitigate further disruptions. We’ve also continued to invest in trade training and apprenticeships, which in the last two years has seen over 190,000 people benefit. We also want to make sure that Kiwis get access to fair price building materials, and that’s driven the Government’s decision to review the residential building supply market. The Commerce Commission is investigating any factors that might affect competition for supply or acquisition of key building supplies, and that will report back at the end of the year.

Question No. 3—Prime Minister

3. to the Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Welcome back to both you and the Prime Minister. Does she stand by all of her Government’s statements and actions?

Yes, particularly the Government’s work to increase incomes and support New Zealand families, including bringing in a short-term cost of living payment for about 2.1 million Kiwis to help with the impact of rising prices as part of a cost of living package; increased income support and indexed to wages, helping to make more than 100,000 families an average of $175 a week better off since 2017; increasing the minimum wage by over a third; increasing the family tax credit and accommodation supplement; the introduction of the winter energy payment and Best Start payment; the introduction of free, healthy lunches in schools; the removal of school donations; and the expansion of free and low-cost doctors visits.

💬 David Seymour: Speech.

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: We have consistently acknowledged that 2022 is going to be a challenging year for New Zealanders as the global energy crisis, supply chain constraints, and the ongoing pandemic push up inflation around the world. However, this work puts us in a strong position to deal with this challenging and uncertain environment, one that will improve.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Before I allow the member to have his supplementary question, I just want to make it clear that when members ask about whether someone stands by all of the Government’s actions, that’s exactly what it means.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Can she confirm her finance Minister has overspent every operating allowance he has set himself for five Budgets in a row?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: What I’d reflect on is what you’ve seen in the way that we have focused on our fiscal responsibility. It’s not too different to what you’ve seen from previous finance Ministers when it comes to operating allowances. What I would also point out is that if you’re looking for comparisons in terms of spending as a proportion of GDP, the Labour Government has been very similar to a National Government through the global financial crisis (GFC). In fact, we returned to surplus a year earlier despite what many would argue is the COVID pandemic having a much greater economic impact.

💬 Hon Grant Robertson: Can the Prime Minister confirm that despite the finance Minister being a particularly modest individual, he has overseen—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order!

💬 Hon Grant Robertson: You can’t have irony?

💬 SPEAKER: No irony here. Any further supplementaries? Question No.—no, it’s not.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she expect to overspend next year’s operating allowance as well?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Obviously, we have already set out the operating allowance, so I would note that Treasury has already also stipulated that, actually, in terms of increasing costs that are likely to be seen by some of our agencies and departments, we’re looking at somewhere in the range of $3.5 billion that will be required to continue to operate as we stand.

💬 Christopher Luxon: What year does she plan to return to surplus?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I’ve said—one year earlier than the National Government did with the GFC—in 2024-25.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Can she confirm that non-COVID Government spending has increased by almost 10 percent per year since 2020?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, here I reflect on the traditional comparisons we use as a percentage of GDP. We spent less in 2021 and 2020 as a percentage than National did in 2009 and 2010, and that is in spite of what many would argue is a more significant economic crisis. I would also throw this back here, because, of course, what members of the public will be interested in is how the Opposition intends to fulfil all of their promises to the electorate. We have set out that our priority is supporting New Zealanders as we recover from COVID. The cost of—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! It’s gone beyond what the Prime Minister is responsible for.

💬 Christopher Luxon: What does she believe is the relationship between record levels of Government spending and record increases in interest rates?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Obviously, right now the focus has been from the Opposition side on whether or not the spending that we have put forward in our Budget—which has both focused on supporting New Zealanders through targeted measures around the cost of living, so as not to have an inflationary impact, and investing in health services. He will have already seen the Governor of the Reserve Bank say that what we have spent in our focus has been “small beer” relative to what we are experiencing in the global environment, and the inflation rates of other countries right now speaks for itself. New Zealand is sitting down closer to the lower quarter with our inflation rates relative to the rest of the world. The OECD is at 9.2 percent. The member cannot argue that this is specifically down to the New Zealand Government’s spending.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she accept that record levels of Government spending when inflation is already at a 30-year high means higher interest rates and higher mortgage costs for tens of thousands of Kiwi families, and, if not, why not?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Firstly, the member himself has proposed tax cuts for the highest-income earners, which are unquestionably inflationary and do not help the lowest-income earners. As an alternative, we have focused on a cost of living package that, because it is targeted, not only offers higher levels of support for lower and middle income New Zealanders but also is less likely to have an inflationary impact. That is what you do when you’re a Government focused on those who need support the most and on not making the problem worse.

💬 Christopher Luxon: What impact, if any, does she believe consistently spending more than promised and running deficits in an overheated economy will have on the cost of living crisis?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, as I have referred back time and time again, what the member is arguing does not square with what we are seeing internationally: supply chain constraints, simultaneous COVID recovery, the war in Ukraine. That is why we are having this experience, and I again refer to the Governor of the Reserve Bank, when asked specifically about Government spending: it’s “relatively small beer compared to all the other drivers that are going on.” The member on the opposite side ignores our international reality; we have not. That is why we are focused on New Zealanders and supporting them to get through the tough international environment we’re in.

Question No. 4—Police

4. to the Minister of Police: What announcements has she made regarding the roll-out of the Tactical Response Model?

As part of Budget 2022, I announced the $185 million nationwide roll-out of the tactical response model. This is a vital step forward in the improvement of police front-line safety and builds on the $45 million investment we made into front-line safety last year. The tactical response model will ensure that police are well trained, well equipped, and well supported to keep themselves and communities they serve safer. One of the key parts of the model is that it will give police better access to tactical options when required, while maintaining a routinely unarmed police service.

💬 Ginny Andersen: What does this mean for the front-line capabilities for New Zealand police?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: As one front-line police officer put it, “Yesterday was one of the scariest days of my front-line career. But the tactical response model training helped me feel like I had the skills to get through it safely.” Budget 2022’s investment into rolling out the tactical response model is one of the largest investments in police front-line safety ever. The model will see a significant shift in the front-line capabilities of our police, including more than doubling the current tactical training for front-line staff from 3½ to 7½ days a year, the deployment of tactical prevention teams with advanced armed offenders squad - level training to undertake search warrants in high risk situations, and the double crewing of tactical dog teams.

💬 Ginny Andersen: How has the tactical response model been further developed?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: The $45 million investment we made into front-line safety last year allowed the tactical response model to be trialled across four police districts: Northland, Counties Manukau, Waikato, and Central. Police have engaged with staff, iwi, and the wider community to gain feedback to support any refinements which would ensure success of this model in practice. Public feedback was welcomed over a four-week engagement period as we want to make sure this works in our communities. This feedback will help inform Police to roll out the model across the country.

Question No. 5—Finance

5. to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with ANZ that “Domestic inflation pressures are likely to last for a considerable time”; and if so, when does he expect domestic inflation to return below 3 percent?

As I’ve said a number of times in recent months, I agree that inflation pressures are persisting in New Zealand, as they are in a number of countries around the world. I note that the quote the member references is in a commentary piece where the ANZ expects New Zealand’s Consumers Price Index (CPI) inflation rate to peak at 7 percent. For context, the average CPI inflation rate for the OECD hit an annual rate of 8.8 percent in March and 9.2 percent in April. These high global inflation rates are contributing to New Zealand’s CPI inflation rate, which was 6.9 percent at the latest reading for the year to March. To answer the second part of the member’s question, inflation is measured in New Zealand on the basis of CPI. That is forecast by the Reserve Bank to return to 3 percent in the September 2023 quarter.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does he stand by his May statement that “the short term challenge of inflation is significant”; if so, how does he define the short term?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well, it certainly is significant, and New Zealanders are facing that every time they go to the supermarket and every time they go to the petrol pump. The Reserve Bank uses an average over time measure for inflation—over the medium term—but certainly across this year we are seeing significant pressures for New Zealanders from inflation.

💬 Nicola Willis: Is he aware that according to forecasts from the Reserve Bank and the Treasury, non-tradable or domestic inflation is expected to remain above 3 percent until at least 2025; and why does the Minister persist in blaming international inflation solely on global factors?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The member would be wise to think about what non-tradable inflation is and what domestic inflation is; we have a thing called CPI which includes tradables and non-tradables. Consistently in New Zealand’s history, non-tradables have exceeded tradables. We’ve had a period where that’s been in reverse but it’s now going back the other way. The non-tradable inflation is severely influenced by global factors—for example, housing, which is regarded as a non-tradable. One of the biggest components of the increase in housing costs in the last quarter was building materials, which is caused by the supply chain constraints from overseas.

💬 Nicola Willis: Well, does he agree with the Reserve Bank Governor that “scarcity of labour is the number one constraint on economic activity”; and if so, is he concerned that Immigration New Zealand’s failures to process visas is adding to New Zealand’s cost of living crisis?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The Government has announced our immigration rebalance, we have the borders opening in July, and there is a forecast for net migration to reach 24,000 by the end of next year, so we will see more workers coming in. But this is a result of COVID. And members on the other side of the House might like to forget about COVID or rewrite history, but the truth is that the way we closed our borders has allowed New Zealand to get through COVID better than almost any country in the world, and that is both from a health and economic point of view.

💬 Nicola Willis: Has he seen the Auckland Business Chamber’s recent State of Play Survey, which concludes, “small and medium businesses are reeling, with no alternative but to raise prices to counter the acceleration and overhead costs and a crippling shortage of essential skills needed to keep business moving”; and does he accept that skills shortages are a driver of inflation?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: We on this side of the House understand that to get through COVID, small businesses had to work extremely hard, and I’m very proud of the fact that we supported them. In 2020 over 60 percent of jobs were supported by the wage subsidy scheme. In 2021 47 percent of jobs were supported by the wage subsidy scheme. We are working to make sure that businesses can access the skilled staff they need, and through the course of the pandemic we have trained more New Zealanders to be able to work as well. This is a global situation. New Zealand’s economic performance is regarded by the likes of Moody’s as being very strong compared to our peers. I’ll listen to those advisers rather than the member on that matter.

💬 Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern: Can the Minister confirm that one of the reasons that New Zealand has a skills shortage is a lack of investment in skills and trade training, and that under this Government we’ve seen a 55 percent increase in apprentices since the pandemic?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Yes, I can, and the Government’s Apprenticeship Boost initiative that supported employers, particularly small and medium enterprises, to keep their apprentices on stands in contrast to the previous Government, who, after the global financial crisis, abandoned apprentices to the point that many of them lost their job. I’m extremely proud of the fact that our Apprenticeship Boost initiative and our trade training initiative means that 190,000 New Zealanders have benefited from trade training and free apprenticeships.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does he agree with ANZ senior economist Miles Workman that households are going backwards financially as inflation outpaces income growth, and how does he explain why ANZ’s consumer confidence survey shows, despite the Minister’s repeated claims of a strong economy, most Kiwis are expecting bad financial times in the next 12 months?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The member can’t work out what she wants, because, in the House last week, she was criticising the Government for the fact that wages weren’t keeping up with inflation. She’s now concerned about the fact that wages might actually rise, because the ANZ report that her primary question comes from forecasts that the largest wage rises since 2009 are on their way for New Zealander workers; 2022 is the only year in the forecast where inflation outpaces wage growth.

💬 Nicola Willis: How does the Minister explain why our nearest neighbour, Australia, has inflation far, far lower than New Zealand?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The two economies are extremely different. But if I can point the member to this chart—[Holds up graph]—which actually shows that New Zealand’s inflation rate is in the lower quarter of the OECD, and our economy and our recovery from COVID puts New Zealand in one of the strongest positions we can possibly have to support New Zealanders through this. I do note that the member is now campaigning against the wage increases that New Zealanders are expected to have next year. We will remember that.

💬 Chris Bishop: Nice try, clever clogs!

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: What—what did you say?

💬 Tangi Utikere: Kia orana, Mr Speaker. My question is to the Associate—

💬 SPEAKER: Sorry. I can see offence has been taken, but unless someone takes a point of order, I didn’t hear the comment that was allegedly made. If someone feels that they should apologise and get it over with rather than me having to come back to it, I’d be happy with that. Right. Question No. 6—Tangi Utikere.

Question No. 6—Health (Māori Health)

6. to the Associate Minister of Health (Māori Health): Kia orana, Mr Speaker. What additional support will Budget 2022 provide to help protect Māori and Pacific people from bowel cancer?

Alongside my ministerial colleague the Hon Aupito William Sio, we announced over $36 million across four years to shift the starting age for bowel screening from 60 years old to 50 years old for Māori and Pacific people. We know if cancer is detected early and treated earlier, our people have a better chance of survival, and the current age for screening misses Māori and Pacific people who need it the most. We are proud on this side to introduce bowel screening earlier, which will save lives and continue to rise to the inequities that have been long suffered in the health system.

💬 Tangi Utikere: How significant is this announcement for Māori and Pacific people?

💬 Hon PEENI HENARE: The $36 million investment is significant, but preventing the death of our Māori and Pacific whānau means so much more. A higher proportion of bowel cancer occurs in Māori and Pacific peoples before they reach the age of 60, at approximately 21 percent compared to 10 percent for non-Māori and non-Pacific peoples. This investment will ensure that the screening system reflects these statistics. This announcement will mean about 60,000 more of our whānau will be invited to access screening every year. Our people deserve to live longer and have healthier lives, which is why this Government is committed to making services like bowel screening fairer by lowering the screening age.

💬 Tangi Utikere: What reaction has he seen from health practitioners about providing additional support through Budget 2022 to shift the starting age for bowel screening for Māori and Pacific people?

💬 Hon PEENI HENARE: I’ve received only positive feedback about this announcement. Medical Director of the New Zealand College of General Practitioners, Dr Bryan Betty, stated on Saturday Morning with Jack Tame that lowering the bowel screening age to 50 for Māori and Pacific peoples levels things out and is the right thing to do. Bowel Cancer New Zealand medical adviser and senior Māori health researcher Professor Sue Crengle stated that extending the age range is really transformational because it means we will have the same opportunity to benefit from that programme as non-Māori and non-Pacific people.

Question No. 7—Police

7. to the Minister of Police: Does she stand by her statement, “There is no doubt that our communities are feeling some incredible distress with the recent activities”; if so, does she believe gang tensions have increased under her watch?

In answer to the first part of the question, yes. In answer to the second, on Friday I was briefed by Superintendent Jill Rogers in Auckland on the recent tensions between two gangs. Police have launched a major disruption and suppression operation in response to these tensions, which have so far resulted in 22 search warrants, supported by the armed offenders squad; 22 arrests; 37 charges laid; and 10 firearms seized, along with 300 rounds of ammunition.

💬 Chris Bishop: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The second leg of that question was, “Does she believe gang tensions have increased under her watch?” I do not believe the Minister actually answered that question.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, she certainly addressed it.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: How many gang-related shooting incidents have occurred in the last two weeks?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: I understand that there have been 22, 23 drive-by shootings.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Would 22 or 23—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! People should not interject when their own member’s asking a supplementary.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: —drive-by shootings be indicative of a rise in gang tensions?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: As I’ve said before, it’s incredibly distressing that our communities are facing this, but the Police are working diligently at pace to get on top of this particular issue. I support them, and they are supported by this Government: record investment, record training, and record numbers of police on the beat. Imagine what it would be like if we still had the numbers that the National Party left us.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: What does she say to the 68.3 percent of Kiwis that think that she is soft on crime, and does she think that result is reflective of the fact that she won’t accept that gang tensions have increased under her watch?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: As I say, we’ve had gang tensions as a feature of our community for well over 50 years. I support comments like those of Jarrod Gilbert, who say that you shouldn’t politicise the work of the police. Also, I support the fact that whatever you do should be evidence-based. The community has a role to play in these episodes in that if they know they have information, they should be sharing that with the Police. They can do so anonymously—0800 555 111; Crime Stoppers. The Police would welcome any information that the community has.

💬 Hon Stuart Nash: In recognition of the gang and organised crime issue, did the Minister manage to get any support to address these issues in Budget 2022?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: Yes, we did: an extra $94 million, on top of the record investment we have made in the Police Force this Budget, but also building on the $450 million that we made in previous Budgets.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: In light of the enormous amount of investment the Minister and this Government is making, why have we had 23 drive-by shootings in the last two weeks?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: That member may feel that he wants to criticise New Zealand Police and the diligent work that they are doing, but I stand by them every single day of the week. I was in Auckland, talking to the team that is leading the operation, and they are working diligently and they are working hard. They are going into some very dangerous situations. That member should be backing police, like I do.

Question No. 8—Transport

8. to the Minister of Transport: What recent updates has he received on transport infrastructure projects?

It’s all go in the transport space thanks to our Government’s commitment to upgrading crucial transport infrastructure to make it safer and more efficient, now and for future generations, to travel around our communities and regions. For example, I recently joined members of the Franklin community to review the Glenbrook roundabout on State Highway 22, which has just seen the completion of the last major milestone of that project. The roundabout is a futureproofing project and is expected to be used by over 21,000 vehicles a day. It’s making State Highway 22 significantly safer by reducing speed and eliminating a dangerous turn that large trucks previously had to navigate on the former intersection, and community members were very pleased.

💬 Shanan Halbert: What progress is being made on green transport infrastructure?

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: As a Government, we’re committed to walking the talk on climate change by making our transport network more sustainable and supporting people to transition to lower carbon-emitting forms of transport. This weekend, I attended the opening of the New Lynn to Avondale shared path in Auckland, which connects communities through shorter links between schools, town centres, and public transport. The shared path links to Auckland’s growing and comprehensive network of shared paths, including the Waterview shared path; the Northwestern cycleway; city centre networks; and, of course, the new cycle path over the Tamaki river to the electorate of Pakuranga. As more people travel around on bikes and by walking, we’ll see reduced traffic congestion, reduced emissions, and healthier communities.

💬 Shanan Halbert: How will investment in transport infrastructure help secure New Zealand’s economic future?

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: By delivering on projects such as Penlink, Auckland light rail, the Manawatū-Tararua Highway, the Mount Messenger bypass, the Cromwell State Highway safety improvements, and the ones I’ve mentioned will help to address New Zealand’s current and longstanding infrastructure deficit, will improve road safety outcomes, and will contribute to jobs around the country. When we took office, infrastructure spending stood at $32.5 billion; Budget 2022 lifts it to $61.9 billion from 2022 to 2026. Our Government is committed to plugging the infrastructure deficit and planning for growth in our country while reducing carbon emissions.

Question No. 9—Agriculture

9. to the Minister of Agriculture: Does the Government have any plans to regulate winter grazing over this winter, to avoid cows up to their hocks in mud with nowhere comfortable to rest; if not, why not?

[Audio issue]

💬 SPEAKER: Turn your mute off, Damien.

💬 Hon DAMIEN O’CONNOR: It’s up to your staff. I thought your staff were doing that, Mr Speaker. In 2019, I appointed an independent task force to look into this issue, and they made recommendations on what farmers needed to do to improve their winter grazing conditions. Key recommendations included that intensive winter grazing should only be used where it’s suited to the land and the stock class, it can be well-managed, winter grazing contracts and farm management plans must be used—

💬 SPEAKER: Sorry, Mr O’Connor. There’s a bit of hilarity happening on both sides of the House. There’s a suggestion you’re in your pyjamas.

💬 Hon DAMIEN O’CONNOR: Well—ha, ha! Mr Speaker, we’re out in the provinces here. We don’t need a suit—we don’t need a suit out here, Mr Speaker. Winter grazing is also regulated by the Animal Welfare Act and freshwater farm regulations. In addition to these safeguards that will be in place this winter, we’re strengthening the rules for intensive winter grazing from 1 November this year; that will make it more practical for farmers and better protection for both the environmental and animal welfare outcomes.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: Supplementary. Can I also confirm that I’m not in my pyjamas, Mr Speaker, but my supplementary is did the—

💬 SPEAKER: Well, I think it’s traditional wear for people who have got COVID, so he’s OK.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: All right. OK. Well, I’ll remember that next time. Supplementary: did the agriculture sector support further delays of intensive winter grazing regulations over winter 2022, and if so, is he confident our agriculture industry is committed enough to adopt best-practice environmental protection and animal welfare measures in the 21st century?

💬 Hon DAMIEN O’CONNOR: Absolutely. The delay in implementation of the intensive winter grazing regulations was to ensure that they were practical, that farmers could implement them, and that the outcomes that we sought could be achieved. This timing allows the crop to be planted in the right place to ensure the best winter grazing practice for 2023. On top of that, this Budget allocated $30 million additional for animal welfare compliance, so the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) people will be out on the ground ensuring that best winter grazing practice occurs this winter.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: Will MPI help ensure that technical guidance of the new regulations is available by mid-2022, and if not, does he see a risk that action on winter grazing could be delayed for even longer?

💬 Hon DAMIEN O’CONNOR: No. Farmers now have to abide by the Animal Welfare Act, which ensures that they must maintain adequate standards of protection, shelter, water, and lie in places that are not muddy—excessively muddy—for animals. So the current law protects those animals. In addition to the advisory services that we have, $50 million on top of the $30 million for animal welfare has been provided in Budget 2022 to ensure that farmers have access to good advice and guidance for best farming practice, which includes winter grazing.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: Does the Minister agree that New Zealand agriculture being viewed as slow on the uptake of modern environmental climate and animal welfare measures is bad for the long-term sustainability of New Zealand’s export revenue, and if not, why not?

💬 Hon DAMIEN O’CONNOR: If that was indeed the perception, I would agree, but in fact the RSPCA has recently put out a report saying that New Zealand’s animal welfare standards surpass those of the UK, which they maintain are the highest in the world. So while there’ll always be room for improvement, I would advocate and say that most farm practice maintains the highest animal welfare standards. There are, of course, always exceptions, and for those farms and farming operations that don’t meet those high standards, we have to check up on and prosecute where necessary.

💬 Mark Cameron: Does the Minister accept that winter grazing practices are nuanced, and laws should be tailored to acknowledge regulatory practices, given consideration that there are variations like acknowledging local topography, variations in soil aggregate, and seasonal rainfall variations, and if so, will he return such regulatory powers to local councils as per my member’s bill?

💬 Hon DAMIEN O’CONNOR: I absolutely agree that every single farm and every single farm system will be unique—bespoke, I think is the trendy word. We have to ensure that the regulations laid down maintain high animal welfare standards regardless of the farm systems in place, but I think it’s quite clear in working with the local councils that we can be sufficiently flexible to ensure that the highest standards of animal welfare and environmental regulations can be maintained while allowing for flexibility. I’m not convinced that it requires a separate piece of legislation; the existing laws provide that flexibility—implementing them is the challenge that we all have.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: What is his view on academic findings recently published in a journal that “Although it is a widely held belief that New Zealand dairy farming is the most effective and environmentally sustainable in the world, this is not true.”?

💬 Hon DAMIEN O’CONNOR: I’d have to say that our animal welfare standards and our production systems are some of the most natural and regenerative in the world; however, they’re not perfect. What we are attempting to do—by support of the new research and development and new support for regenerative discussion groups, ever-improving practices across our farm systems—is become the best farmers for the world. We have a unique farming system in New Zealand. I think it is one of the best in the world; we’ll continue to improve it as needed.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: Can the Minister sympathise with those across Aotearoa who believe that our agriculture sector is not pulling its weight to improve animal welfare outcomes, reduce emissions, clean up our rivers, and restore biodiversity, and if not, why not?

💬 Hon DAMIEN O’CONNOR: I don’t agree that we’re not pulling our weight. I think these are complex biological systems and there’s a huge amount of capital investment—change does take some time. I think between the Minister for the Environment, between myself, and the Government, we’re giving clear signals that we must improve across areas of fresh water quality, animal welfare, and sustainability. So I think we’re making good progress and the last Budget gave sufficient resources to assist us more quickly along that path.

Question No. 10—Pacific Peoples

10. to the Minister for Pacific Peoples: What recent announcement has the Government made about supporting Pacific peoples and home ownership?

Last month, as part of Budget 2022, I announced the Government’s Pacific package of $196 million. That includes a housing programme to build up to 300 homes over the next 10 years for Pacific families in Porirua East, with initial funding of $49 million in the forecast period. This Government’s commitment to homeownership for Pacific families will see it deliver on more affordable and sustainable housing for Pacific families by partnering with local iwi and Ngāti Toa, and a key Pacific housing provider in the Porirua area, by Pacific and for Pacific families. Over the next year, the Central Pacific Collective, Ngāti Toa, in consultation with Kāinga Ora, the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, and Treasury will ensure a comprehensive business case meets the criteria of the Government’s Pacific wellbeing approach.

💬 Barbara Edmonds: Is this the first example of iwi and Pasifika working together for Pasifika homeownership?

💬 Hon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO: Yes. This is the first partnership between Pacific peoples and iwi to build affordable homes for Pacific families, but certainly not the last. We know that Pacific communities want to own their own homes, and this is the reason why in Budget 2022 we plan to partner with Ngāti Toa and the Central Pacific Collective in Porirua to build these homes dedicated to Pacific families in Porirua East. These 300 homes will be built over the next 10 years through Our Whare Our Fale, an innovative Pasifika housing initiative that will be developed with Ngāti Toa and delivered by the Central Pacific Collective and this Government. The chair of the Central Pacific Collective said that “Pasefika people experience inequitable outcomes across nearly every measure. Providing high-quality, affordable housing will improve wellbeing and help Pasefika people to build inter-generational wealth and independence.”

💬 Barbara Edmonds: Why is homeownership so important to Pacific families?

💬 Hon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO: A Salvation Army report in October 2019 called the “Housing Crisis in Aotearoa Facing Pasifika People in Aotearoa” said that more than 70 percent of Pacific people in Auckland were renting. In another report called “Housing in Aotearoa: 2020”, it shows that in 2018, Māori and Pacific peoples were less likely to own their own home or hold it in a family trust than any other ethnic group, and were also more likely to live in public housing. That same report concluded that the decline in homeownership has occurred unevenly since the 1990s, with greater falls for Māori and Pacific peoples and in the Auckland region, where the largest number of Pacific people live. Social housing has allowed our families to have a roof over their head, but this generation wants to own that roof and build intergenerational wealth for them and their children, as the generation before them had done. We cannot create intergenerational wealth through social housing, and why this initial project, partnering with Ngāti Toa and the Central Pacific Collective, is so critical. We are literally building the template for homeownership for Pacific families for generations to come, by working with iwi and starting in Porirua East. I want to assure everyone in the House that this is just the beginning of a valued partnership between iwi, Pacific peoples, Government, and affordable housing for our families. I also want to acknowledge and thank the arohatanga and the manaakitanga of Ngāti Toa for supporting Pacific aspirations.

Question No. 11—Local Government

11. to the Minister of Local Government: Which councils, if any, have expressed opposition to her on the Governments proposed Three Waters reforms?

Periodically throughout the reform process, councils have spoken in favour of and against aspects of the three waters reform. At the heart of councils’ concerns have been the issues of governance, representation, ownership, and local voice. That’s why I accepted the majority of recommendations made by the independent working group on representation, including a shareholding plan to ensure greater community say. The reality is that 500,000 New Zealanders each year have to boil their drinking water. We’re well past the point for change. The status quo is unacceptable, and the Government is working to improve the quality of water, the health of our environment, and a financially sustainable way of funding waters infrastructure.

💬 Simon Watts: Is one of the reasons why councils oppose the reforms because in Entity B they only have seven seats between 22 councils on the regional representative group?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: There have been a number of concerns in relation to the regional representative group, but I can assure you that the working group and the changes that they recommended to strengthen the regional representative group have been taken on board, and what they have highlighted is that that group at a strategic level can guide the work of the water services entities to achieve those regional and sub-regional outcomes and to improve community outcomes in terms of waters infrastructure, safe drinking water, and the like.

💬 Simon Watts: Under the proposed reforms, how can councils affect decision making when decisions require a 75 percent majority and councils only hold 50 percent of the votes on these regional representative groups?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: That voting threshold only takes place on questions of a merger or the divestment of assets, and just to recall, the position of the Government is that we will safeguard against privatisation and ensure that we have a public model of water service delivery. I don’t think that member can give that guarantee.

💬 Simon Watts: Is one of the reasons why councils oppose these reforms because they have “no right, title or interest, [legal or equitable] in the assets, security, debts, or liabilities of a water services entity”?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: That member fails to understand that the model that we are proposing is a public model of water service delivery. So in creating a shareholding interest, it is to ensure there is a threshold that enables councils to have a say on the most significant decision, which will be the question of a merger or the divestment of assets. In fact, that member can’t give the same assurances. Our Government’s commitment is to safeguard against privatisation.

💬 Simon Watts: So under the proposed three waters reforms, why are water service entities a body corporate?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: It’s outlined in much of the information that we’ve got, but we have set up stand-alone water service entities enabled to ensure that they have the right structure and strategic ability to undertake their role and, actually, have balance sheet separation to ensure that they can financially invest in waters infrastructure.

Question No. 12—Prime Minister

12. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government’s statements and policies?

Yes.

💬 David Seymour: Does she stand by her statement on Stephen Colbert in relation to dangerous firearms “so we got rid of them”; if so, is she aware there were about 20 gang shootings—even the Parliamentary Library could not give a precise number—while she was out of the country?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The member fails to acknowledge the context in which I made those statements, which were a reference, firstly, to military-style semi-automatic weapons, which I would hope that this House would continue to support the removal of tens of thousands of from circulation, and the continual removal of them, given they are now prohibited. Secondly, I’ve also acknowledged publicly, multiple times, that New Zealand still has work to do. That is why, in this year alone, over 500 firearms have been seized by the police. In just the last week, they have seized firearms as part of their operations around the recent escalation of gang tensions. It is why we also have a firearms unit now within the Police, and we are working on, of course, the register, which the Police Association themselves have said will make a significant difference. I would welcome the support of that member, given his concern over gun crime.

💬 David Seymour: Does the Prime Minister stand by her statement this morning that she was open to the idea of increasing the civil asset forfeiture regime for gangs using guns; and, if so, why did the Government not adopt ACT’s member’s bill that would have done just that, just two weeks ago?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The member will be aware that we’ve already been public about the work that we’re doing on the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act, which is about continuing to put pressure on organised crime, through the seizure of assets, where they’re unable to demonstrate they’ve been obtained through legitimate funds. We are continuing to work through some of the detail on that and any additional measures which, of course, as I said this morning, we’d be looking to put more detail out in the near future. We’ve also said that we’re open-minded and continue to work on other measures that we believe will make a difference. Here, let me be clear: the suggestion in this House that the tension between the Tribesmen and the Killer Beez is somehow to do with a Labour Government is patently wrong. Do we have tensions in our communities right now? Yes, but show me an area where we have watered down law, when we have done the opposite. We’ve increased police, we’ve increased the tactical response model, we have seized assets, and we have seized guns. I would prefer a conversation in this House that is pragmatic about doing something that makes a difference, rather than political pot-shots that do nothing to keep our communities safer or support our police.

💬 David Seymour: Well, to the Prime Minister, if the problem hasn’t been caused by the Government’s policies, how can she possibly take the credit for her Government’s actions then going to solve it?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: If the member is somehow claiming that we, for instance, shouldn’t have banned military-style semi-automatic weapons, that is for him. If the member doesn’t support, for instance, a gun register when the police and Police Association have asked for it for years; if he doesn’t support firearm prevention orders—which, I note, the National Party put up twice in 2014 and again, I believe, in 2016 and failed to pass—which we are now putting before this House; if the member supports none of those things, that is for him. Are they going to solve everything? No, but they are all progress in making sure that people are safer.

💬 David Seymour: Can the Prime Minister tell the House on what date her Government will introduce a new bill to reform civil asset forfeiture laws and take gangs funds; and, if not, can she tell the House how many of gangs’ illegally imported forearms will be on her new register?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, the member made the same argument about banning military-style semi-automatic weapons. I disagreed with him then, and I disagree with him now. If he believes that this country is not safer for having taken 60,000 weapons out of circulation, then that is for the member. I personally believe it has made a difference, as has removing 500 weapons out of the hands of those who would chose to use them for illegal use. The gun register also helps the police track the ownership and movement of guns that are stolen or illegally sold. Now, again, if the Police Association claim that this is going to make a difference, then I would be inclined to believe them.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! Before the member asks the next supplementary, I am going to ask the Opposition to be quieter in their response, and I’m going to implore Mr Goldsmith not to repeat his action.

💬 David Seymour: Did the Prime Minister just try to tell New Zealanders they should be glad the situation is not even worse than 23 drive-by shootings in the last fortnight?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: No; what I’m stating is that if the member believes things would be better by not having a gun register, firearm prevention orders, or 60,000 military-style semi-automatic weapons in circulation, that is for him. We have not done anything to encourage, entice, or incentivise what is clearly illegal criminal behaviour by gangs currently in New Zealand. What we have done is increased—

💬 Nicole McKee: Point of order, Mr Speaker.

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: —I haven’t finished—the number of Police who are available—

💬 SPEAKER: Now, I’m going to warn the member before she starts her point of order that this must be a real point of order and not a disagreement with an answer. If the member’s standing up to disagree with an answer, then she is being disorderly, and, if she does it now, she’s being deliberately disorderly. Does the member want to continue?

💬 Nicole McKee: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister referred to 60,000 military-style semi-automatics that had been removed, and this House has already corrected that figure. The incorrect figure has been—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume her seat. She will now stand and apologise. She is disagreeing with an answer after a specific warning not to. If she was a more experienced member, she would be out of the House.

💬 Nicole McKee: I apologise, Mr Speaker.

💬 David Seymour: Is the Prime Minister aware that the official cash rate (OCR) rose a further 0.5 percent while she was out of the country, raising the cost of servicing a half-million-dollar mortgage by $250 a week in the past year, and, if she is aware, what—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! I’m going to get the member to start his question again—he’ll sit down—and to make sure that it’s accurate. The member cannot make assertions as part of a supplementary question.

💬 David Seymour: A point of order, Mr Speaker. I genuinely seek your clarification. Is the problem that I can’t give contextual information or that you think I’m giving inaccurate contextual information?

💬 SPEAKER: I think what the member is doing is making a link which is not a link and he’s calling it a fact. The member will continue with the supplementary now. If we want to have an economics discussion later, I’ll have it in my room; we’re not having it here.

💬 David Seymour: Mr Speaker, point of order.

💬 SPEAKER: I’m going to make it clear to the member: if he argues now, he will be finished his supplementaries for the day.

💬 David Seymour: No, no, Mr Speaker; I’m merely seeking your clarification.

💬 SPEAKER: Mr Seymour, there is no such thing as a point of clarification in this House, and the member knows it. Now, I’m going to implore the member to ask a supplementary question or to give up.

💬 David Seymour: Does the Prime Minister agree that increases in the official cash rate tend to be linked to increases in mortgage rates, and, if so, is she aware that mortgage rates have risen by $250 a week if you consider the interest costs on a half-million-dollar mortgage, that increase being over the last year?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: In answer to the first part of the member’s question, yes, I’m aware of the OCR increases. I’m also aware, of course, that those are decisions for the Reserve Bank.

💬 David Seymour: Point of order. The question was whether the Prime Minister was aware that the OCR is often linked to mortgage rates, not whether she was aware that the OCR had changed.

💬 SPEAKER: Does the member want a further supplementary?

💬 David Seymour: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I’d like the point of order to be addressed. I don’t believe the Prime Minister addressed the question.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, yes, and there is no obligation for me to respond to the member, as he knows.

💬 David Seymour: If only! Is the Prime Minister aware that $350 is enough for a taxi to the airport and a one-way ticket to Sydney, and, if that’s her response to the cost of living crisis, can she tell young New Zealanders why they shouldn’t use it for just that?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I would also add, of course, that as a Government we recognise the cost of living impacts for low and middle income earners much beyond the $350—it’s why, for instance, we’ve already had the increases to the family tax credit. It’s why we’ve introduced a reduction in fuel at the pump by 25c and we also extended it. It’s why we halved the costs of public transport and why we’ve extended it for those on a community services card. But it’s also why from the moment we came into office we introduced the winter energy payment. It’s why we introduced Best Start. It’s why we removed school donations and made it free to go to the doctor for under-14s. This entire term in office, and prior, was focused on reducing the day-to-day costs that New Zealanders experience and focus on increasing incomes. This is not something we’ve come to in 2022; we’ve been focused on it for a long time. It does so happen that we are in a very acute period for New Zealanders.

💬 David Seymour: Point of order. I seek leave for the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) (Definition of Significant Criminal Activity) Amendment Bill to be introduced and set down for members’ order of the day No. 1 tomorrow.

💬 SPEAKER: Is there any objection to that action taking place? Yes, there is. That concludes oral questions.