Oral Questions

1. to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: Has she taken advice to Cabinet regarding an international moratorium on seabed mining; if so, what did the advice say?

I’ve not taken advice to Cabinet regarding the specific issue of an international moratorium on deep-sea mining in areas beyond national jurisdiction. However, protecting and preserving the marine environment is a key objective for Aotearoa New Zealand, and I’ve engaged closely on this issue with ministerial colleagues including the Ministers of oceans and fisheries, conservation, and the environment. Our current focus is engaging activity, and in good faith, in the International Seabed Authority (ISA) process, to ensure the effective protection of the marine environment. To that end, we’ve been vocal in our calls for no deep-sea mining to proceed without robust environmental protections. At the most recent ISA negotiations in March 2022, New Zealand worked with Chile and Costa Rica to advance a significant proposal to improve environmental decision-making and environmental standards in the ISA regulations.

💬 Hon Eugenie Sage: Has the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade reviewed New Zealand’s international position on seabed mining since Nauru triggered the two-year rule to fast track development of seabed mining and exploitation regulations; if not, why not?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: Thank you for the question. Yes, a full review of New Zealand’s approach was last conducted in 2021, following Nauru’s triggering of the two-year rule. New Zealand has stepped up its approach to the International Seabed Authority mining code as negotiations have entered this critical phase. We’ve been more proactive in advocating for high standards and communicating our bottom lines. This position includes being explicit that New Zealand will vote against any mining code that does not provide the sufficiently high environmental standards as required by article 145 of the United Nations Convention of the Law of the Sea. If the ISA adopts a provisional mining code that does not meet such standards, or fails to adopt the code before the deadline, we’ll be advocating for no seabed mining applications to be approved by the ISA until a final code is approved by the assembly.

💬 Hon Eugenie Sage: Does the Minister agree with recent research published in Marine Policy showing that there are extensive gaps in scientific knowledge about deep-sea life which may take decades to adequately address; if so, will New Zealand support a precautionary moratorium in line with the Minister’s commitment to high standards of environmental protection?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: Thank you for the question. New Zealand accepts that there are gaps in scientific knowledge relating to deep seabed mining and the impacts of it. At this moment, we’re proactively supporting work in the Pacific to improve our scientific understanding of the impacts of deep-sea mining, with a particular focus on marine ecosystems, habitats, and their species. It is clear that deep-sea mining has the potential to cause significant harm to the deep seabed, but our limited knowledge of the deep seabed means it’s hard to quantify that harm. That’s why New Zealand is advocating for a precautionary approach in the negotiations taking place at ISA, with a view to ensuring the highest standards of environmental protection. If those high standards mean that deep-sea mining cannot currently take place, then so be it.

Debbie Ngarewa-Packer (remote): Why did the Government abstain from voting in support of the deep seabed mining moratorium at the International Union for Conservation of Nature World Conservation Congress last year, if you don’t know that it’s good for the nation?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: To clarify the points that I’ve made: there is a lack of scientific information to properly evidence the impacts of deep seabed mining on the seafloor. That is the position New Zealand is taking. We are advocating for high environmental standards through the ISA, and we’ll continue to do that.

💬 Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: The courts of this country have ruled against this activity for the mere fact that there isn’t enough knowledge; if that’s the case, then why not have a full moratorium until you have more knowledge? Surely precautionary—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! The member’s got about three questions in there; it’s probably out of order, but I don’t think it’s worth going back. There’s enough there for the Minister to answer.

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Without conflating a domestic jurisdiction with an international jurisdiction, can I say that the Government has been entirely consistent in its advocacy for pushing for higher environmental standards at the ISA to enable New Zealand to advocate for the protection and preservation of the marine environment. This standard would need to be respected by all States and will influence decisions in those marine areas beyond national jurisdiction.

Teanau Tuiono (remote): What is her response to the declaration by the Pacific Parliamentarians’ Alliance on Deep Sea Mining launched today at the Our Ocean conference in Palau with its call for a moratorium on deep-sea mining?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: We’ve made clear our views on deep-sea mining and the risks it poses to the Pacific. We’re supporting scientific work in the Pacific as well. At the moment, our focus is working so that deep-sea mining does not take place unless we can ensure the protection of our ocean. Ultimately, we respect the right of each nation to determine its own position and kaitiakitanga responsibilities. I understand that there are a range of views on deep-sea mining in the Pacific and I welcome the opportunity to engage with our Pacific neighbours on this issue. The Government is actively considering how it can better engage with Pacific countries on deep-sea mining—including through a potential focus on deep-sea science so that we can all better understand how to protect our Pacific Ocean.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: Does she agree with the former Governor-General of Tuvalu Sir Iakoba Italeli that “Our ocean assets are critical and can generate national revenue, but the legacy of our oceans and their health is more important. Deep sea mining must be held to a higher standard to protect our Commonwealth.”, and, if not, why not?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: I certainly agree with the views that state that deep-sea mining has an impact on our ocean floor and that participating in the initiatives that show a science-evidence base to support higher environmental standards is the approach that the New Zealand Government is taking in relation to its engagement with the ISA in setting a code.

💬 Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: Will she join with tangata whenua and Pasifika leaders who are asking and strongly campaigning to ban seabed mining; if not, why not?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: There are a range of views that have been reflected across the Pacific, and as I’ve already stated, we will certainly work in the Pacific to ensure that there is that science-based information that can help the Pacific to protect its marine environment, that we will continue to advocate for high environmental standards at the ISA, and that we will continue to advocate for the protection and preservation of our marine environment.

💬 Hon Eugenie Sage: Is it still New Zealand’s position that “Restoration or rehabilitation of the seafloor and associated fauna is unlikely to be feasible in many instances” as New Zealand told the International Seabed Authority in 2015; if not, why not?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: Yes, this is still New Zealand’s position on the current state of scientific understanding that recovery rates of the seafloor and associated fauna are likely to be very long and the solution sits across a number of Governments for years to come.

💬 Hon Eugenie Sage: Is she concerned that the ISA’s fast-tracked process to finalise regulations to allow seabed mining by July next year could result in an assessment process that does not protect the marine environment; if so, will the Minister advise Cabinet to support an international moratorium on seabed mining on the high seas?

💬 Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: Our current focus is engaging actively and in good faith in the ISA processes to ensure the effective protection of the marine environment. We are pleased that the ISA —as advocated for by New Zealand—has adopted a hybrid-meeting approach; this does help with further engagement and has enabled more participation in this very serious issue. As negotiations at the ISA proceed, New Zealand’s approach to deep-sea mining in areas beyond national jurisdiction remains under active review. There is a plan to conduct a full review engaging all relevant Ministers, following the next ISA negotiating session in July, and this will inform our position moving forward.

Question No. 2—Finance

2. to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?

The ANZ World Commodity Price Index rose a further 3.9 percent in March to a record high, with broad-based gains once again led by dairy and aluminium. Dairy surged 7.6 percent compared with February, as buyers snapped up limited supplies. Forestry rose 3.3 percent due to demand from China, amidst supply restrictions there, while horticulture was flat amid bad weather and shortages of labour. Meat and fibre eased as beef prices also eased—though they are still close to historic highs—while lamb prices edged up. All of this points to the fact that the primary sector is continuing to play an important role in supporting our economic recovery and rebuild.

💬 SPEAKER: Before I call a supplementary, I just want an assurance from the Hon Mr Simpson that he didn’t just breach photography rules in the House.

💬 Hon Scott Simpson: No, Mr Speaker.

💬 SPEAKER: Thank you. The member didn’t take a photo. OK, thank you.

💬 Hon Scott Simpson: Fiddling on my phone, though.

💬 SPEAKER: Sorry?

💬 Hon Scott Simpson: I was fiddling on my phone, though.

💬 SPEAKER: Right. Admiring the person on his right, as well.

💬 Anna Lorck: What constraints has he seen on the primary sector supporting the economy?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The global economic environment remains volatile, with shipping costs continuing to remain elevated due to delays, particularly at Chinese ports. The ANZ Commodity Price Index report said that the Baltic Dry Index—an important measure of shipping costs—lifted 15.5 percent during March, while the Harper Petersen world container index hit record levels. New Zealand continues to face ongoing supply constraints due to the pandemic, exacerbated by these cost increases. We will be continuing to support our primary sector and exporters through the uncertain times that we’re in, by making sure that goods can get in and out of New Zealand—in particular, through our airfreight subsidy scheme. The support through that scheme has so far enabled more than 13,200 flights, carrying over 250,000 tonnes of airfreight worth more than $20 billion.

💬 Anna Lorck: What other reports has he seen on the economy?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Statistics New Zealand today released the food price index for March. It does show prices rose 0.7 percent in March compared with the previous month, and after removing regular seasonal impacts, food prices rose 0.4 percent. For the year, prices rose 7.6 percent, the largest increase since July 2011, when prices rose 7.9 percent. Rising food prices are a global phenomenon—for example, the United States reported overnight that food prices rose 1 percent in March 2022, compared with the previous month, and 8.8 percent for the year. The environment continues to remain volatile with the ongoing COVID-19 disruptions and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine pushing up prices. We acknowledge that the rising cost of living is a crisis for some New Zealanders, and that’s why we have supported low and middle income earners through reductions in their fuel bills and income increases. These are measures that can make a difference to households rather than unfocused tax cuts favoured by the Opposition that would benefit those earning over $180,000 the most.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does the Minister seriously expect New Zealanders to believe that domestic policy settings have not contributed to the soaring cost of Kiwi-grown fruit and vegetables, up 18 percent in the past year alone?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I’m not sure if the member is aware, but in order for goods to get from where they are grown to the places where they are sold, it requires them to go on something called transport, and that, unfortunately, has seen significant cost increases, particularly due to the price of fuel.

💬 Nicola Willis: Would the Minister care to mansplain further—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! End of question. I should have ruled the first question out. The member knows that. I’ve been pretty lenient with her, over time, but I think now she’s in a senior position she must stay within Standing Orders. The Minister does not have responsibility for the first part of that question.

💬 Hon Michael Wood: Does the Minister believe that domestic and international airlines would have been able to stand on their own two feet without the Maintaining International Air Connectivity scheme?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well, I believe that all airlines have benefited significantly from the international air connectivity scheme. In terms of New Zealand, obviously, the Government has stepped in to support Air New Zealand. It’s certainly true that subsidies are important sometimes to keep transport going. I’m not sure if that applies to the supply of black Mercedes to drive across the road, but I’ll find that out.

Question No. 3—Prime Minister

3. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement that “We’ve been a Government focused on doing what we can to ensure that Kiwis’ wages are increasing, including relative to the cost of living”; if so, does she accept that inflation is rising faster than wages, so real incomes are falling?

I stand by my statement. We’ve been focused on tackling the cost of living since we came into office. This includes, of course, average ordinary-time wages rising by 14.5 percent; increases to income support, Working for Families, childcare assistance, and the accommodation supplement; the introduction of the winter energy payment; and Best Start. We’ve raised the minimum wage by over a third, from $15.75 in 2017 to $21.20, and overseen the increase of wages for nurses, police officers, and teachers, to name a few. We’ve introduced the Ka Ora, Ka Ako free and healthy school lunch programmes to over 200,000 students, reduced education costs for parents by removing school donations for deciles 1 to 7, and expanded free and low-cost doctors visits to children under 14. Volatile global energy prices and, yes, supply chain disruption mean that inflation will exceed wage growth in the 2022 financial year. This is why we also removed 25c of fuel excise duty and instituted half-price public transport fares. This contrasts with the Leader of the Opposition, who plans to double the cost of public transport, remove free public transport for superannuitants, increase petrol prices, cancel public holidays, and provide tax cuts for those earning $180,000.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she accept that higher levels of Government spending in a constrained economy means interest rates will need to go higher than otherwise to contain inflation; if not, why not?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Well, firstly, I would like to draw out that the spending of this Government relative to the last has broadly been in line, if you compare as a percentage of GDP. We spent less than 2020 and 2021 as a percentage of GDP than National did in 2009 and 2010. We’ve also taken on similar amounts of debt if you compare this period to the period of the global financial crisis. I would also reflect the Secretary to the Treasury, who has pointed out that, in terms of inflationary impact from Government spending, it all depends, of course, on what that Government spending is on.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Is it her view that Government policies have no impact on inflation or interest rates at all; if so, why?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I’ve said, it all depends on what that spending is going towards. And, as I’ve already pointed out, whether you look as a percentage of GDP, the spending that this Government has invested in our economy, which has been to support, in a targeted way, New Zealanders through this crisis, we have been very cautious in the way that we have done that. It is a bit rich to be lectured by the other side of the House, who want to spend a billion dollars cutting tax at the top income bracket of $180,000 or more and also giving back tax breaks as well to investors. Untargeted tax cuts would have the impact of being inflationary.

💬 David Seymour: If it’s the case that her Government’s spending has not stoked inflation in New Zealand, can she explain to the public why meat, poultry, and eggs are reported by Statistics New Zealand today to have inflated in price faster than the average increase in prices across the country, when those things are produced almost entirely within New Zealand and not influenced by offshore effects?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Well, in terms of offshore demand and offshore prices, they will be, because of what’s happening in the export market. Again, I would point to the fact that, yes, we have, overall, seen an increase in food prices. There are two factors at play: external factors, which all countries are being hit by at present, but the New Zealand market also has some factors that are unique to us. We do not have enough competition in the New Zealand grocery market. That is something that we as a Government and as a country need to address, and we’ve already set out our plans on how we intend to do so.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she agree with CoreLogic economist Kelvin Davidson that “anyone with a mortgage is paying more and there could be another at least one percent onto most mortgage rates over the next three to six months”, and, if so, what will another 1 percent mean for the typical Kiwi mortgage holder?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Of course, what we have seen in our interest rates in New Zealand is that we have had historic lows, and that even with the official cash rate (OCR) adjustment that we have seen the Reserve Bank announce today, that would bring us back to a point that’s less than what we were even seeing in 2017 and at the point of the election. It has been historically low. We do, however, have concerns over whether or not we might have families who are overleveraged in the market because they may have purchased at a time during historically low interest rates. That is something that we’ve been very mindful of, and making sure that we look at what’s happening in our housing market to ensure that those families have all of the support and best advice possible when making those significant purchasing decisions, so that they can weather changes in interest rates.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she accept that rising interest rates, which mean a family with an $800,000 mortgage are now paying over $12,000 a year more in interest than 12 months ago, will make the cost of living crisis much worse for thousands of Kiwi families already struggling with record inflation and falling real incomes?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, I would point to the member that the OCR was 1.75 at the time when National last left office and we are talking about a historically low period when it comes to interest rates in this country. I’d be interested in hearing what the member is possibly proposing in this space. Obviously, the Reserve Bank are using the tools available to them, as has been tradition in New Zealand for a long time.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Have the policies that she promised over a year ago would “tilt the market in favour of first-home buyers” worked, and, if so, why has the share of houses being sold to first-time home buyers just hit a 4½-year low?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I can tell you what won’t tip the market towards first-home buyers, and that’s stripping out all of the changes that we have made when it comes to deductibility for investors. That member proposes giving back a billion dollars towards those who are speculators in our market and those on incomes over $180,000. I can tell you that certainly won’t help first-home buyers.

💬 Christopher Luxon: What role does she believe the Government has, if any, to avoid policies that push interest rates higher than they otherwise need to go?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Of course we have a role to play in making sure that all of the economic indicators that are important to our economic wellbeing as a nation are heading in the right direction. In terms of growth, we are back to pre-COVID levels. We have low unemployment. We have low debt relative to other countries. All of that matters for our economic wellbeing as a nation. But, of course, the cost of living matters too, which is why, if you have an eye to inflation, what you don’t do is have untargeted tax cuts, which will have an inflationary impact. There are other ways to help New Zealanders. That’s why our 1 April changes target the majority of families through the family tax credit, superannuitants through increases in superannuation, and those on Government support. That is how you support New Zealanders through these tough times.

Question No. 4—Police

4. to the Minister of Police: Does she stand by all her statements and policies?

Yes, in the context that they were made and undertaken.

💬 Chris Baillie: Does she stand by her statement from earlier this month that, “We have put 1,400 extra cops on the beat.”, and how does that square with the Prime Minister’s statement from last month that 1,800 new police officers were “promised and delivered.”?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: Yes.

💬 Chris Baillie: So is the Prime Minister wrong when she said 1,800 new police officers had been recruited?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: Eighteen hundred new police officers, in terms of the lift and then 1,800 growth, which means we have lifted the number of police—we will, when we reach the target in June 2023—by 1,800, taking account of attrition.

💬 Chris Baillie: How does her statement that, “We have 1,400 extra cops on the beat.” square with the Police Association’s statement that, “Just 1,273 new police officers had been recruited.”?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: Well, it would depend on when the Police Association did their count. I know from the latest figures the police have given me, it is 1,400.

💬 Chris Baillie: Does the Minister think policing success should be measured by how much the Government spends, or by whether the crime rate goes down?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: Whatever happens in terms of the crime rate, if you don’t have sufficient resource to deal with it, you cannot deal with it. This Government has spent the last four-and-a-bit years rebuilding the police after the National Government froze budgets and dropped the numbers. They are the facts.

Question No. 5—COVID-19 Response

5. to the Minister for COVID-19 Response: What recent announcements have been made about the COVID-19 Protection Framework setting?

Today, I announced that from 11.59 p.m. tonight, New Zealand will move to orange, and Kiwis will be able to enjoy the long weekend with greater freedoms. Over the last six weeks, we’ve seen Omicron cases peak in most of the country. With cases and hospitalisations now dropping, we’re confident that a move to orange will lock in those gains and keep communities safe, while helping us get back to a greater sense of normalcy. By following the rules and each of us continuing to make some sacrifices, we’ve continued to save lives, protect whānau and loved ones, and we’ve demonstrated what it means to be a Kiwi—that we look out for one another.

💬 Dr Anae Neru Leavasa: What will the changes to orange mean for New Zealanders?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: At orange, there are now no indoor or outdoor capacity limits, but there is guidance on holding safe events, and face masks continue to be required in many indoor settings. Bars and restaurants are no longer required to enforce the seated and separated rules, although they can choose to keep them if they wish to. The move to orange allows us to balance more freedoms for New Zealanders, while keeping some of the tools we know are effective—reducing the spread of Omicron.

💬 Dr Anae Neru Leavasa: What precautions can people take in light of these changes, particularly over the coming long weekend?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: It’s important to note that Omicron is still in the community, so there is still risk. I urge everyone to continue to be cautious and to think about the health of others who they may come into contact with, but especially those who are immunocompromised or who are at higher risk of long-term health impacts from infection. I would encourage people to use rapid antigen tests where that’s appropriate; continue to wear their masks where that’s appropriate or required; and of course to get vaccinated if they’re not already vaccinated, and to get a vaccination booster if they haven’t taken up the opportunity to do that. As New Zealanders get ready for a well-deserved long weekend, it’s important, too, that they have a plan for what they would do in case they—or someone in their family—gets COVID-19 whilst they are away from home on holiday.

💬 Dr Anae Neru Leavasa: What will the changes to orange mean for schools, in particular for the use of face masks?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: The orange setting allows for schools to respond to the level of risk present in their school communities, and to make appropriate decisions to put additional measures in place, like the continued wearing of face masks. The Ministry of Education will be encouraging schools to retain their current settings at school for tomorrow, so that they have time to plan for any changes they might wish to make when students return after the school holidays. The decision to move to orange has been made based on public health advice, and it reflects the fact that New Zealanders are showing clear signs that Omicron has now peaked, and we’re on the way down the other side.

Question No. 6—Finance

6. to the Minister of Finance: Does he share concerns about New Zealand’s economic outlook expressed by BNZ that “business confidence is shattered, uncertainty is very high and leading indicators of growth are weak”; if so, how does he think these factors will affect New Zealand households over the next 12 months?

I do have concerns about the impacts of COVID-related global supply chain disruptions, the effects of the war in Ukraine on global supply chain and services, and resulting price increases. This is shared by the BNZ, who said in their commentary on the Quarterly Survey of Business Opinion that “The pressures faced by business are all supply side.” In answer to the second part of the question, we certainly do acknowledge that many Kiwi households are facing a tough time, and, if we are realistic, this is likely to continue through the second part of the first half of this year. That’s why, however, it is positive that the BNZ has said that wages would also head higher, which will support Kiwi households. The Government is doing what we can to give households certainty that what we will do to support them will continue—for example, we’ve said that we have cut public transport fares in half instead of increasing them to the tune of $630 million, as suggested by the Leader of the Opposition, and it’s also why we’re targeting income support to low and middle income families instead of giving thousands of dollars of tax cuts for those on the top rate.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does he agree with the Reserve Bank’s monetary policy committee, who today stated: “Consumer confidence has been declining as domestic price pressures are outpacing nominal household income growth.”, and will he now admit that the cost of living is growing faster than New Zealanders’ incomes?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The Reserve Bank is reflecting what all New Zealanders know: that at this particular time in 2022, it is tough for many households, in terms of rising prices. I would note that, in respect of the second part of the member’s question, the half-yearly update forecast from the Treasury indicates that 2022 is the only year in the forecast period in which inflation will outstrip wages.

💬 Nicola Willis: What will he do to restore economic confidence of middle-income New Zealand households squeezed by soaring costs and now facing rising mortgage rates with the biggest increase to the official cash rate in 22 years?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: What this Government will do is continue the balanced approach that we’ve had of making sure that we keep debt low compared to other countries around the world; that we invest heavily in the things that those New Zealanders rely on, such as a strong public health system, good quality schools, and making sure we have good quality transport networks right around New Zealand. And what we won’t do is claim that we’re going to be able to reduce debt at the same time as promising massive increases. I’m struggling to keep up at the moment with the member’s party’s promises but, as far as I can tell, it means more spending in areas like mental health, in defence, in transport, but, at the same time, promising to cut taxes and lower debt—it’s the Bermuda Triangle that National is still trapped in.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does he agree with the statement by the Reserve Bank’s monetary policy committee that in discussing the underlying influences on higher domestic inflation, “both international and domestic factors were important”, or is the finance Minister the one person in New Zealand who doesn’t think his policy decisions have an impact on inflation?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As was traversed in the question by the member’s leader, different policies implemented by different Governments will have an impact. If a Government were to adopt untargeted tax cuts that favour the most wealthy in New Zealand, that will have a significant impact. On this side of the House, we believe that we do have to continue to invest in our health system, in our education system, while making sure we keep a balance. The Reserve Bank has its job to do; the Government will keep doing its job.

Question No. 7—Health

7. to the Minister of Health: What recent support has been made available for New Zealand’s health system to learn from our response to COVID-19?

This Government has taken seriously its responsibility to keep New Zealanders safe from avoidable harm, and, on this basis, tens of thousands of lives have been saved because of the way we responded to COVID-19. However, it’s important that we also capture what we’ve learnt from the response so far, and, for this reason, I’ve announced, today, the establishment of a $9 million research fund to look at our response and ways that will contribute to future health system planning. The COVID-19 pandemic continues to have far-reaching impacts on our communities, and while research, so far, about New Zealand’s COVID-19 response and conduct of the National Immunisation Programme has already provided valuable insight and enabled the rapid application of national and international evidence, today’s funding will allow a deeper look into how we responded. A request for proposals for research opens on 19 April, and I look forward to seeing how many successful proposals we get to use this important opportunity.

💬 Sarah Pallett: What will the priorities of this research fund be?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: With this fund, we’re looking at a whole range of things, such as how different sectors of society, including Māori, Pacific, and disabled communities, have been affected by COVID, and what we’ve learnt about working with these communities. This will help us understand what still needs to be done and to prepare for future pandemics. There are also a lot of valuable lessons to be learnt from the COVID-19 vaccination programme, including how we manage disruption to other vaccination programmes and how we improve other vaccination programmes as well. During our response, we have vaccinated 4 million people against COVID-19. That’s the largest vaccination programme we’ve ever seen in this country, and we need to see how we can apply what we’ve learnt in that programme to other programmes.

💬 Sarah Pallett: What benefits does he expect from this research?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: The key benefit we are focusing on for this research is how lessons from the response to the COVID-19 pandemic can be brought to bear on future responses and mass vaccine roll-outs. We’d also expect that equity should be a key element of any proposal. It’s become clear that systemic inequities in access to healthcare existed in the system and played out during the course of our response to COVID. This is why one of the criterion for assessments of research proposals will be how rapidly the evidence can be translated into practice or interventions in New Zealand and for our underserved communities, particularly Māori.

Question No. 8—Health

8. to the Minister of Health: What is the total list value of non-COVID vaccines that have expired in the past five years, and how many 15 to 30 year olds to date have received a vaccine as part of the measles catch-up campaign launched in July 2020?

Quantities of 22 different vaccines expired before they were used in the last five years. The list value of these vaccines, before applying rebates and credits, was $21.7 million, and after applying rebates and credits, the net cost was $11.5 million. When the decision to procure a particular vaccine is made, it is done on the best information at the time and with a reasonable expectation of what can be administered in the period ahead. But the nature of pharmaceutical purchasing is that once you place an order, that’s it; you own the stock. Generally speaking, they don’t do sale and return. In response to the second part of the member’s question: 24,319 15- to 30-year-olds have been vaccinated as part of the measles catch-up campaign since July 2020.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: How many months in advance is he given notice of the likelihood of millions of dollars of vaccines expiring?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: Well, as I tried to explain to the member in my answer to his primary question, it is that pharmaceutical procurement requires a lead time and it’s done on the basis of the best information at the time and with a forecast for what can be administered, but then things come along, such as a worldwide pandemic, that disrupts the roll-out of particular campaigns. When pharmaceuticals are procured, they are procured on the basis of what is needed at a particular time, but also a buffer for subsequent years, and that buffer can be anything from four to nine months of supply for that particular vaccine.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: Why did he not call the Meningitis Foundation, who say they would have been able to distribute the 17,000 meningitis vaccines before they were allowed to expire?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: Pharmaceutical purchasing is the responsibility of Pharmac, and management of campaigns is the responsibility of clinical leaders within the Ministry of Health and DHBs, and they put together the plan of both procurement and roll-out of the campaign.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: How many flu vaccines does he expect will expire this year, and will it be more or less than the $3.8 million of flu vaccines that, according to written questions, he allowed to expire last year?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: The flu vaccination campaign for 2022 is going gangbusters. We now have roughly 230,000 flu immunisation jabs that have been administered, and no one is expecting the flu campaign this year to be anything other than a success.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: Will he give any soon-to-expire flu vaccines away for free this year for those who would otherwise have to pay for them or would he rather have them expire?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: This Government has increased the number of flu vaccines available to New Zealanders—roughly 2 million. We have seen a very good start to the campaign—it started on 1 April—roughly 230,000 jabs now having been administered, and we’ll continue to do that. I anticipate that New Zealanders will understand the importance of getting a flu jab this year, because of the ongoing risks of COVID and because they want to have a safe and secure winter.

Question No. 9—Transport

9. to the Minister of Transport: How is the Government supporting the provision of public transport services across Aotearoa New Zealand?

As a Government, we have a strong sense of the public good through the provision of goods and services to New Zealanders, and in transport, one of the ways we do that is through the subsidisation of the operation of public transport networks and services to improve the level of service and encourage the uptake of public transport. This helps reduce congestion, makes our cities work better, and reduces emissions. We’ve thought long and hard about the role that the Government has to play, and we’re putting that thought into action through support for public transport services as well as important investments in rapid transit in Auckland and Wellington, the Eastern Busway, and into regional rail, among many other projects—just like many other countries are—as we face down the climate challenge.

💬 Shanan Halbert: What are some examples of how the Government subsidises public transport?

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: The main support that the Government provides for public transport services—[Interruption]—and it’s important for all members to be aware—is through farebox assistance, where the Crown subsidises approximately 30 percent of the cost of a fare, with local transport authorities covering approximately an additional 30 percent. If public transport had to stand on its own two feet, these subsidies would be removed, seeing users pay the full cost of public transport, which would generally be over double the current cost of fares. The SuperGold card is also an important public transport subsidy, which, if removed, would result in seniors and veterans having to pay for off-peak and weekend travel.

💬 Shanan Halbert: How do public transport subsidies encourage mode shifts?

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: When the Government provides support for public transport services, commuters can have confidence in the frequency and reliability of public transport giving them more options for getting from A to B. The Government backs cities and towns around New Zealand to have better-quality public transport, more in line with what we see in other countries, and, in doing so, provide more opportunities for mode shift by giving people real transport choices. This helps to reduce our transport emissions. I’m encouraged to hear that members around the House want to see our emissions reduce, and supporting public transport is a very important part of that.

💬 Simon Court: Does the Minister think that the taxpayer is getting value for money for the $282 subsidy for each Te Huia train passenger, when InterCity buses run 11 services a day, with Wi-Fi, between Hamilton and Auckland for only $20 per passenger, and is that value for money?

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: Firstly, I would question some of the figures that the member uses. He might have got them from Paul Goldsmith’s spreadsheet, I think. Secondly, I would note that, actually, some of those inter-regional bus services that Mr Court refers to have, in fact, received Government support through the Essential Transport Connectivity scheme over the past three years. Thirdly, I would note that it is exactly the wrong time for members opposite to propose that we get rid of public transport services as we face down a climate emergency. I know it is deeply ingrained in the politics of the right wing of New Zealand to be vehemently opposed to any investment in rail, walking, and cycling, but as we try and reduce emissions in our country, we have to start walking the walk. [Interruption]

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! Mr Bishop inter alia, please turn your volumes down. Finish your answer, please.

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: In finishing my comment, what I would say is that across most parties in this House, we voted for the zero carbon Act the other year in this Parliament. At some point, we have to have policies and investments that follow through on that and reduce emissions in our transport sector. You can’t vote for that and then oppose everything we do in transport to reduce emissions.

💬 Shanan Halbert: How does public transport fit within the developments of our plan to accelerate the transition to net zero?

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: Next month will see the release of the Government’s Emissions Reduction Plan, which will outline how we intend to meet the emissions reduction budgets set out in the zero carbon Act, which had broad support across the House. Public transport services are critical for enabling the levels of mode shift and will play a key role in helping us meet those targets. That was a key recommendation from the independent Climate Change Commission. I look forward to the support of all members who supported that process in delivering better services to reduce transport emissions.

Question No. 10—Social Development and Employment

10. to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: How many people, if any, were on jobseeker support for two years or more in the December 2017 quarter, and how does this compare to the equivalent figures in the December 2021 quarter?

Jobseeker support is there for New Zealanders who need it and qualify. As at the end of December 2017, there were a total of 48,582 receiving jobseeker support for longer than two years. Of those, 29,031 received a health and disability exemption, and 19,551 were considered work-ready. As at December 2021, there were 77,928 receiving a jobseeker benefit for two years or more. Of those, 45,165 received the health and disability exemption, and 32,763 were considered work-ready—a difference of 13,212 work-ready clients on jobseeker. We have come through COVID-19 in much better shape than we did the global financial crisis (GFC), due to the Government’s quick actions. We’re now seeing more people move off benefit and into employment than any time since electronic records began. This trend has continued in the first quarter of the year, and I’m looking forward to the Ministry of Social Development publishing the March quarter results later this month.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Why, when businesses are crying out for staff, did fewer people who had been receiving a benefit for longer than three years move into employment in 2021 compared to 2017?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: The exits off benefit into employment have been the highest that we’ve seen since electronic records were kept. Last year, 119,700 people moved off benefit into work; in 2017, that was 79,737 people. Currently, we have about 11.1 percent of our working-age population on benefit; that compares to, I think, 13.2 percent of the working-age population that were on benefit two years after the GFC.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: What was the unemployment rate after the GFC, compared to now?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I think it was certainly higher than 3.2 percent, which we have been able to achieve. If we look at the actual numbers of the general population that are on benefit, or are jobseeker support work-ready, it’s about 3.2 percent, as well, but that’s, of course, not the working-age population.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: How can the Government claim that its employment initiatives have been anything but a complete failure, when fewer long-term benefit recipients have been supported into work every single year under Labour, compared to 2017?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I have been clear about the numbers of people who have been supported into work. The evidence is there to show that we have supported more people off benefit into work than what has been seen since electronic records have been kept. We as a Government have been focused on making sure that when we do support people off benefit, it actually is into employment. The outcome or the success is not just about getting the person off benefit with no consideration for where they’ve gone. I think that there will be good news when the quarterly results come out, because, already looking at it, what we’re seeing at the end of March is probably about 20,000 fewer people on benefit, compared to December 2021. Given what we’ve gone through, I think that’s something for us as a Government to be proud of.

Question No. 11—Veterans

11. to the Minister for Veterans: What recent changes have been made in support of New Zealand Vietnam veterans affected by chemicals like Agent Orange during the Vietnam War?

I’m very pleased to announce to the House that the ex gratia payments totalling $29.6 million has been made to 740 Vietnam veterans between December 2021 and March 2022 as part of the memorandum of understanding (MOU) signed in 2006 between the Crown, Vietnam veterans, and the RSA. The MOU accepted that exposure of service personnel to herbicides and defoliants was a major contributor to the ongoing suffering of our veterans and their families. I realise the money cannot fully compensate our Vietnam veterans for the hardships and inevitable distress they have experienced, but I hope this small gesture does go some way towards recognising their suffering and that of their family. I thank all current and ex-servicemen—and women—on behalf of all New Zealand for their service and for the sacrifices they have made for this country.

💬 Ibrahim Omer: What new illnesses appear on the United States National Academy of Sciences’ list of conditions associated with chemicals of interest—in this case, Agent Orange?

💬 Hon MEKA WHAITIRI: When the MOU was signed, there were five conditions on the United States National Academy of Sciences’ list. The MOU recognised that other conditions might be added in the future. Two new conditions have been added, including monoclonal gammopathy of undetermined significance and hypertension. This means that under the terms of the MOU, Vietnam veterans in New Zealand who have been diagnosed with these new conditions are now entitled to an ex gratia payment of $40,000. If they have died of the condition before receiving an ex gratia payment, their spouse or partner may be entitled to $25,000. As I’ve noted, a total of $29.6 million has been paid to 740 Vietnam veterans who have met one of these new conditions. Further payments will be made as applications from veterans, spouses, and families are received. In some cases, the ex gratia payment of $40,000 can be life changing. This support from the Government shows the commitment we have for our veterans.

💬 Ibrahim Omer: What steps were taken to recognise and recompense Vietnam veterans?

💬 Hon MEKA WHAITIRI: In 2005, a report of the Joint Working Group on Concerns of Viet Nam Veterans to the Government comprised three main major themes: acknowledging the past, putting things right, and improving services to Vietnam veterans. These themes form the basis of the measures and support agreed to in the memorandum of understanding. The Government does take seriously its commitment to the veterans who served in Vietnam. The MOU was signed in 2006, after the Helen Clark Government accepted that the exposure of service personnel to dioxide-contaminated herbicides and other chemicals was a major contributor to the ongoing suffering of veterans and their families. The MOU defines these conditions as those that appear on United States National Academy of Sciences’ list of conditions where there is “sufficient evidence of association between the chemicals of interest, in this case, Agent Orange, and health outcomes.” This list is based on an overview of international research and databases dealing with the association between herbicides, such as Agent Orange, and particular health conditions.

Question No. 12—Police

12. to the Minister of Police: How many more gang members are there on the National Gang List today compared to October 2017, and how many shootings related to gang activity have police recorded, if any, over that same period?

In October ’17, the National Gang List had 5,343 gang members on it, and has since increased by 2,348. The National Gang List is an intelligence tool used by police. While the number of gang members on the list has dropped by around 500 since August last year, it remains an unreliable tool for measuring gang membership. I’m advised that police do not record shootings specifically related to gang activity; however, they do report violent offences which involve those on the National Gang List. These offences can include the use of firearms. In 2017, there were 2,138 violent offences committed by gang members; in 2021, this number was 1,704. The number of violent offences committed by gang members peaked in 2010, at 2,362.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Does she agree with Police Association president Chris Cahill, who said, “Without a doubt, gang crime is up”?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: I agree with much of what Chris Cahill says. My view around gang numbers and gang activity and operations is that when you know there’s a problem, you have to do something about it. That’s why you invest in your police, that’s why you build up the numbers, and that’s why you give them the legislative tools to do the job.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: What is the split of firearms seized from Operation Tauwhiro as against general duties operations?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: Operation Tauwhiro, as I’ve quoted often in this House, has taken around 1,500 firearms off the streets. Operation Tauwhiro has only operated for a year; over the last three years, there have been 10,000 firearms taken out of the hands of gangs.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I specifically asked how many had been taken by Operation Tauwhiro, and how many had been taken from general duty operations, and she hasn’t answered that. She’s answered only Tauwhiro.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, I’ll make two points. First of all, the constant reference to “she” in this House—I think the member should be polite and say “the Minister”. The second point that I’d make is that the member asked for two figures, and he got them.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: If Operation Tauwhiro is responsible for all firearms recovered—1,531—how many have the general duties operations recovered?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: I gave him a figure for over the last three years, which is 10,000. If the member would like me to give him the Gun Safe figures, I’d be happy to do that. I don’t have them with me—if he would care to put that in writing, I will supply them to him.