Annual Review Debate — Police

Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Look, it’s a great opportunity to recap briefly on the main issues covered by the Justice Committee. We covered, to start with, the role of the New Zealand Police in terms of their role to provide those services that the public value so much, including keeping the peace, maintaining public safety, law enforcement, and also crime prevention. But its role also includes community support and reassurance, national security, participating in policing activities outside of New Zealand, and also emergency management.

In 2021, we heard how the Police’s role was highlighted by the need to respond to the COVID-19 pandemic. Overall, in terms of expenditure for 2020 to 2021, Police’s total operating revenue was $2.143 billion, which is approximately 1.42 percent more than the previous year’s spend. In terms of the audit results received by the Auditor-General, there was a statement issued that the standard audit report for Police was satisfactory with the quality of financial statements. The Auditor-General assessed the Police’s management control environment as very good, making no recommendations for improvements in that space.

Some of the main issues that were touched on were the changing nature of gang crime in New Zealand, and members specifically asked questions around the nature of organised criminal groups and also gun crime. It was interesting to note that Police stated that the gang environment has changed significantly due to the return of section 501 offenders who have been deported from Australia. The 501 offenders are often associated with the Australian criminal underworld. Their arrival has resulted in the seeding of additional organised criminal groups and has replicated the Australian criminal environment in New Zealand.

Police stated quite clearly that they are now charging gang members at a higher rate than they have in the past. They told committee members that the rate of charging gang offenders where an offence had been identified is at approximately 92 percent as opposed to previously, which was around the 80 percent mark.

In particular, they referenced Operation Tauwhiro and how it had had an impact on gun crime. Operation Tauwhiro is a nationwide programme aimed at targeting illegal firearm use by gangs and other organised criminal syndicates. We heard that in the year under Police review, Police seized 1,287 firearms and arrested 1,151 people through this operation.

Alongside of Tauwhiro, we heard of operations such as Mist, which specifically tackle the importation of illicit drugs. This recent 10-month – long operation had targeted a syndicate seeking to import drugs into New Zealand from Colombia, and resulted in 50 kilograms of cocaine being seized. Police told us that an interesting feature of this syndicate was its low profile. Syndicate members had not been driving luxury cars or wearing gang patches, and there was little surface evidence of their illegal activities. Police explained that this put into context the need not to focus solely on gangs when targeting drug trade. They noted that 90 percent of those charged with importing, manufacturing, or dealing methamphetamine were not gang-affiliated.

We also heard about improving the front-line safety of staff, with Police allocating $45 million towards improving the safety of front-line officers, including the new funding of tactical response models.

I will touch on also the improvements that Police have taken to police recruitment. The Government has committed to increasing the number of front-line police by 1,800 extra officers. Of these officers, 700 will be specifically dedicated to combatting the rise of organised crime. We asked how many of the 700 for organised crime had been filled. Police believe that they are on track to have the full quota of 1,800 extra officers deployed by 2023. They noted that the experience of some of the setbacks is a result of higher attrition, which has moved around quite a bit because of COVID and the impacts that has made. They’d also noted that the diversity of police has increased as a result of the increased recruitment, and we asked to note how this had been impacted. Police told us that more than 50 percent of those recruited to meet their 1,800 new officers are women.

To wind up, we also heard in detail of Te Aorerekura, a new approach to family harm that was making positive inroads in this space. We also heard about the new Te Pae Oranga rolling out across the country, which aimed to target and prevent lower-level offending being referred to the mainstream justice by, instead, referring to iwi justice panels.

Those, in total, were the main areas covered by the Justice Committee. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr Chair. There’s a few issues raised there by the chair of the committee that I’d like to address. But, firstly, I’d just like to say that every day in this House, or when we’re here when we’re sitting, we keep hearing from the Government the great news story in terms of investment and numbers and all the rest of it, but the reality is this: a 21 percent increase in violent crime since 2017.

Nationally, police priority one and priority two responses, where it’s required to have a police response, are up by 90 percent, at 48 minutes. Auckland City response times are up one hour and 49 minutes—almost two hours. Retail crime is up 25.7 percent. You would have seen a lot in the media in the last few days about just how tough our retailers and our shopkeepers are doing it, having to deal with ram raids and violent robberies on a daily basis. Theft at retail premises is up, like I said, at 32.2 percent.

In 2017, there were 267 assaults reported on police; in 2021, there were 433 reported. That’s a 62.2 percent increase in assaults on police, and, by the way, that number is under-reported, because I can tell you right now that there are police officers going out, doing their job, protecting our communities, being assaulted on a daily basis. You know what the sad thing is? They’ve just come to accept that as part of their daily duties and work life, and they shouldn’t. They shouldn’t have to be desensitised. They shouldn’t have to be accepting the fact that they’re going to be assaulted when they go to work, but these numbers are indicative: a 62.2 percent rise on assault against police officers in the last three years.

Operation Tauwhiro—what can I say about Operation Tauwhiro? I’d like the Minister to get up and actually tell us in detail exactly what Operation Tauwhiro is about. The Government came out very publicly in their response to a lot of pressure coming on them around the rise in gang numbers and the rise in gang crime and they said, “Our response is Operation Tauwhiro.”, and, I’ll tell you what, the general public thought that that was some sort of dedicated task force that was going to be focused on targeting gangs, search warrants, and removing firearms. But, you know what, it’s all smoke and mirrors. It’s what’s called a Clayton’s operation—an operation when you haven’t got an operation—because what they’ve done is they’ve gone out and they’ve spoken to every single front-line police officer and they’ve said, “If you have an interaction with a gang member or you happen to retrieve a firearm or you execute a warrant, we want you do record that against Operation Tauwhiro.” So, Minister of Police, get up in this House and explain to us, because that’s deceptive.

I’ll tell you what, I was talking to two front-line police officers last night who are right on the front line. They’re dealing with gangs, they’re recovering firearms, and they’re at the pointy end when they’re doing the warrants, and they had no idea. They had not been briefed that they were any part of Operation Tauwhiro. They had no idea that any of the hard work that they were doing and the jobs that they were recording were being captured in this fake “Clayton’s Operation Tauwhiro”. They felt that it was deceptive, and these are front-line police officers.

So the Minister today in the House has wanted me to acknowledge and take note of the fact that her COVID mask has got the Police insignia on it. I’m going to do that, but I’m going to say to you, Minister, that’s a privilege. That’s a privilege to have that Police insignia, and I’ll tell you right now, if you want some honest feedback, the front line at the moment needs some strong leadership, not just politically but from the Commissioner of Police and his team as well, to make the streets out there safer for them and for the public that they swear to come out and protect.

Minister, I want you to get up in this Chamber and I want you to explain to all of us why all of these measures that, actually, we use to understand and measure just how safe it is in New Zealand, how safe people are going about their daily business, how safe our shopkeepers feel when they go and open their doors—stand up in this Chamber and tell us again that there’s been no rise in gang tensions in New Zealand, that your numbers are working, that your investment is working, and that the police aren’t buckling under the strain of very poor policy settings by this Government. They’re supposed to deal with it. You’ve emptied the prison muster by 4,000. Are you telling me there were 4,000 prisoners ready to be integrated back into the community and that they didn’t come back out and rejoin gangs and start committing crime again? The police have to deal with that bad policy setting.

Minister, you stood in this House and, when I asked you about a 60 percent drop in conviction rates on retail crime, you said, “Oh, because we’re looking for alternative actions.” Well, what does that mean? Get up and stand in this House and tell us what “alternative actions” means, because I’ll tell you what it means for the front line. For that thin blue line, it is that they’re out there on a Friday night, making arrests, taking offenders off the street, and they’re back out there on the Saturday night, dealing with the same offenders. So get up and explain to us alternative actions.

Get up and explain to us what the Minister is doing about the fact that the youth justice system is unable to cope with a tsunami of juvenile offending. In Auckland City two nights ago, there were five ram raids. We had an 11-year-old failing to stop, and the problem is this: none of us wants to see our kids out there being involved in crime and starting to move into that criminal justice system. That’s the big social investment piece that we have to work on. You, as a Minister, and our police service have to deal with the crunchy challenge that sits in front of you right now. But I can tell you that an 11-year-old driving a vehicle speeding through the streets of Auckland ram-raiding shops is just as likely to kill an innocent member of the public or a member of the police as a 30-year-old gang member is.

So our police at the moment are buckling under the strain of trying to deal with a wave of youth offenders that they’re trying to take action with on a Friday night, and they’re back out doing ram raids, stealing cars, and, by the way, posting it on social media because now that’s the cool thing to do. The police are having to deal with that. So what are you doing, Minister, to support them, other than making a big, bold announcement with Operation Tauwhiro?

Be honest with the public. Be honest with New Zealand. Operation Tauwhiro is nothing but business as usual under a thin blue line that’s actually being stretched almost to breaking point because of the very poor policy settings of this Government.

By the way, the Minister keeps standing up in this House and attacking me, saying that I’m attacking the police. That’s insulting because, you know what, Minister? The front line actually know that I have genuinely got their back. They know that I understand what is happening. They know that I’m in touch with what they are having to deal with on a daily basis.

Let me make it very clear in the House: I’m not attacking our police. Our police force is the best in the world, and the police agency—and the chair of the select committee said this in her opening statement with the Auditor-General’s report—is one of the best-performing agencies. Absolutely, they are. They’re an incredible agency that provide an amazing service to us as a country.

But let me make one thing very clear, Minister: I’m not attacking our police service or our front line. I’m holding you—and by the way, it’s not personal. It’s a privilege to be the Minister of Police. I’m holding you, as the Minister, to account and I’m holding the Government to account. It’s your actions, or lack of them, and it’s the Government’s actions, or lack of them, that the front line is having to deal with, and that’s the reality of it.

So, Minister, I’ll yield to you, and I’ll allow you to stand in the House and explain to us exactly how Operation Tauwhiro is working. Explain to us why, under your watch, you’ve allowed violent crime to increase by 21 percent.

I’d like you to explain to me why we had Detective Superintendent Greg Williams, who does an outstanding job and is the leader of our national organised crime group—he’s the guy on the front line. He’s the guy that’s responding to the gangs. Let me read to you a couple of quotes from him today: “It would have been easy for us to do a six-month operation to kick in doors and take guns.”, and historically that’s what the police would do. They’d back themselves to do that. They’d have warrants, they’d go to the addresses, they’d use the good intelligence that they had, and they’d actually take positive action and they’d start taking guns off the streets. “But”, he said, “the concern was around the kind of firepower the gangs have access to”, and they’re more willing to use them.

How many times, Minister, do I have to stand in this House and try and get you to understand that, actually, gang tensions, gang violence, gang activity, gang presence, and gang intimidation has grown in this country, Minister, under your watch. So I’ll yield now and allow the Minister to respond to the issues that I’ve raised for her.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and I appreciate the opportunity to respond to that member’s questions. Firstly, can I say, though, it’s really nice to be in the Chamber to be able to speak to the wonderful work that the police do.

Before I address the questions specifically, I do want to say a huge thank you to our police. The last couple of years have been the most extraordinary that we’ve experienced as a nation in recent times, and at the forefront of keeping us safe and giving us comfort have been our police: managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ), checkpoints, assurance visits—all the while while being sick with COVID themselves or isolating as well. Huge amounts of pressure on them, and they have still been able to deliver an excellent, extraordinary service, so my heartfelt thanks to them on that.

Secondly, can I say that Mr Mitchell has had a bit of a rough time with me over the last couple of weeks and he’s had lots to say about me, not all of it particularly nice. So I just wanted to respond to the way we should actually, as members in this House, deal with each other and that is with respect, and I’m not entirely sure that that member has got the memo in that regard. It’s been a rough couple of weeks in terms of the comments that have been made that haven’t been entirely, shall we say, correct, particularly when there are things that are conflated.

You know, I do reference the response times, and I will come back to that, but I do want to start back a little bit further, because one of the issues that gets Mr Mitchell quite particularly exercised is that around gangs. If we go back, we’ve had gangs in this country for a long time, but we noted that the advent of the 501s has added a really critical element to the way gangs behave—much more overt, much more sophisticated. That came about because of some sleepovers that John Key had with Malcolm Turnbull, and a result of that close relationship that they had—the unholy conception of the 501s—became an issue that we had to deal with as a country. That started with John Key in 2015.

Now, in recognition of the impact that 501s were having on the criminal environment in New Zealand, the National Party at that time put in place their gang plan. They announced it in 2016, and actually failed to do anything with that. So by the time that we came in to take office, the issue had become so bad. The National Party had run down the police, they had frozen the budget, and police numbers had dropped. So when the member talks about the issue of dealing with crime, we actually have spent the last four years rebuilding the police force, ensuring that they have sufficient resource to do what they need to do and sufficient funding to do what they need to do, and we have put in place some of the legislative tools that they need in order to do what they need to do. That is a fact—that can be demonstrated. Some of the things that Mr Mitchell has been saying are not quite fact and cannot be demonstrated.

But let’s go back to response times, shall we? As the member asked—

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Tell us what they are.

—and I’m really happy to answer these questions, but I’d quite like to answer them in silence as I gave that member the opportunity to speak in silence, if that is OK with that member. I do want to talk to response times, because with regard to the comparative periods that Mr Mitchell used, for the February 2022 figure that he quotes, it was a particularly taxing time for our police, if you will recall.

💬 Barbara Edmonds: Was it something happening around here?

There was something that was happening around here, actually—you’re right, members. But, more than that, the police rotations were coming out of MIQ, they themselves were impacted by COVID by either being sick themselves—and on some days, those abstractions were up to 460 police—and, on top of that, there were other concerns and issues that were going on. Still, the police were able to respond to emergency calls in eight minutes and 39 seconds, and that, for me—[Bell rung] Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa): I call the Minister, the Hon Poto Williams.

I won’t be long; I’ve just got a couple of things that I need to answer in terms of Mr Mitchell. Just over eight minutes for response times, and some of the times that Mr Mitchell is quoting, I think, come from perhaps the 90th percentile, not the 50th percentile. I think we can all say that that’s an extraordinary thing. It’s an extraordinary thing, given all of that pressure, that police were able to respond in that way.

Mr Mitchell referenced retail crime. I just want to say that it’s terrible what happened. The ram raids are shocking and no retailer should have to deal with that, but you have to be able to respond, and what’s the police response? In partnership with Retail New Zealand, they’ve developed the retail crime unit, and that will deal with some of the issues that have come out of the Auckland CBD, which used to be a thriving environment with tourists and people going into work. COVID has leave that place in—you know, there’s not as many people in the CBD as there once were. This is now a feature of many of our towns and cities, where they used to have lots of people come through either for work or for recreation, and that’s not the case. So there is a different dynamic that is being experienced there, and that’s something that the police tell me, but, in response to that, the development of the retail crime unit will help. Not only that, but the additional 1,400 police that we have already put on the front line will support that and help that concern as well.

The other thing that I do want to say about the particular ram raids around some of those high-end shops is that it’s not just a police matter. There are some things that local council can do to support retailers with, perhaps, the development of bollards or something in front of the shops. There are other things that can happen—it’s not just a police response.

In terms of police safety, I was absolutely proud to stand next to the Commissioner of Police in the roll-out of the front-line safety programme, and, in fact, there are two things that I am particularly proud of that we are doing as a Government. We are supporting the police around their front-line safety, and the other piece of work—which will make our community safe—is the firearms register, which we are still working on and we hope to get into place next year. If we get a real good handle on the firearms that are in our community, how they’re being transported, how they’re being secured, and who actually has them, that will increase the safety for our community. So I am really, really proud to be leading that work, and I will continue to lead that work and will be really proud when that business unit is up and running within the police.

Now, there were a couple of other things that the member asked me, and, hopefully, I’ll get a chance to touch on that, but I do want to talk about Operation Tauwhiro. That member has said that Tauwhiro is business as usual. Tauwhiro has been a response to firearms in the hands of gangs, and it is intentional and it is a specific piece of work. It has done such a good job that the police intend to roll it out, but it’s not the only operation. This member over here would suggest to the public of New Zealand that the only thing the police are doing is Tauwhiro. That is not the case, and he is clearly misleading the public of New Zealand in that way.

I’m just going to point to at least four operations that have been running in recent times that have dealt with firearms in particular: Trojan Shield, Tarpon, Seltos, Operation Trout, Weirton, and Bloodhound. All of these are the front-line police getting out there and disrupting gangs and organised crime, and that just because we have resourced them. We’ve had an extra 1,400 police and an extra $450 million resource into the New Zealand Police, and I am proud to be their Minister. I know he’s jealous of my—

💬 Joseph Mooney: Point of order, Madam Chairperson. The Minister just made a statement that the Hon Mark Mitchell had been misleading New Zealand, and I just note that members in this House cannot say that a member is saying something is not correct: Speakers’ ruling 44/4 states that a member may not accuse a member of making a statement they know to be incorrect.

💬 Barbara Edmonds: Thank you, Madam Chair. Speaking to the point of order, throughout the member Mark Mitchell’s comments in his speech, he referred to the Minister and was saying, “Be honest, be honest.” He repeated it three times. So I’m looking at Speakers’ rulings 45/2-3 and 45/5 in relation to that. I did not take a point of order at the time. However, another member has taken a point of order in relation to using the word “mislead”. So I’d like the Chairperson to take that into account, please.

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa): Yes, I am taking into account the points that you’ve raised, Barbara Edmonds. However, I also overheard the member Mr Mitchell accusing the Minister that—well, actually it was accusing me—“You are misleading the House.”, and I am capable of ruling. I don’t need any assistance. I would like to now go back to the Minister for the remaining 21 seconds to finish off her speech.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Point of order, Madam Chairperson. You’ve just attributed a comment to me that I never said. I never once said that the Minister was misleading the House.

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa): There was someone from this side of the House as the Minister was giving her speech who said, “You are misleading the House.”, which was actually accusing me of misleading the House, not the Minister.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: That may will have been the case, but it was not me and you attributed that comment to me.

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa): My apologies to the member. But at this time, I would like the Minister to complete her speech before we move on to the next call.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just say that there is more to the police than Operation Tauwhiro, although the public of New Zealand would not know that if they were listening to Mr Mitchell.

I welcome the opportunity to have further discussion about the fantastic work of the New Zealand Police, and I am proud to be their Minister. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to say that in the midst of all of the Opposition’s what I would call fearmongering about gangs, I do have a concern that I’ve raised with the Minister of Police. I raised it last week in oral questions, but I’d like to get some more detail around it, because I am concerned about the arming of police in reaction to what we’re seeing in the current climate. We’ve heard from the Minister that we’re strengthening the police force, and that’s good, but I am concerned that we now have a very recent report that’s come out that’s attributed death by shooting caused by New Zealand Police at 11 times the rates of England and Wales.

I would like to get some more detail from the Minister around the training and support that police get, as well as what communities get, in preventing deaths by firearms. Especially around this issue, I’m concerned, on behalf of the Green Party, to note that many of the people killed by police were not in possession of firearms. I know the Minister wasn’t sure about that data. But it is—and I have double-checked it—in fact, true that we’re not seeing deaths or even use of force against those who are armed necessarily but many who suffer from mental health issues, and I would like to hear some detail around that training that addresses specifically de-escalation training for dealing with people in mental health crises.

Beyond that, I know that we know the Armed Offenders Squad, in particular, has been identified as deploying people to the front lines without having necessarily completed the training that they would ordinarily be required to do, at least in the past, and I’d like to hear how the Minister has ensured that that is no longer the case. Further to that, again, the Independent Police Conduct Authority has said that the Armed Offenders Squad often has been found to escalate matters in situations where they respond, and, in particular, we know that Māori are seven times more likely than are Pākehā who are engaged in the same or similar actions—that has to be noted—to be at the receiving end of police use of force.

So the combination of that—the fact that people are 11 times more likely to die from the use of firearms by police here, the fact that Māori are seven times more likely to receive any kind of use of force, and the fact that our Armed Offenders Squad, in particular, are not necessarily as trained as we would like them to be—are concerns here. If the Minister could just break down the training and the response to this data and information that we’ve received, especially for mental health sufferers and for Māori—thank you.

Thank you to that member for the question. It’s one that has many parts to it. I think, first, I will speak to the concerns that the member raised around deaths by firearms. When she asked the question in the House last week, it was very clear from what we know of the environment here in New Zealand that the comparator with the UK, for example, is not comparing apples with apples, because the UK have much tighter firearms laws. They are less likely, as a general population, to be armed. In New Zealand, of course, we have people who use firearms for recreation or for gathering kai and the like, or for farm work. So, as a population, we are far more armed, generally speaking, so we cannot do that comparison and come out at the same point—it will not be the case.

I remember saying to that member last week in the House that where police have used this force, generally speaking—not in every case, but generally speaking—it has been against somebody who has been armed. So that was the point that I had wanted to make to her last week. But we are talking about an increasingly unsafe environment, generally speaking, in terms of our mental wellbeing.

When we talk about increases in reporting to police, there have been 50 to 60 percent increases in family harm and in mental health reporting. There’s no doubt that COVID has been tough on our people and our mental wellbeing hasn’t been as robust to deal with that, and a lot of our young people—you know, we have terribly high suicide rates. So the member is pointing to a particular issue that the police have been dealing with, and one of the ways they deal with that, of course, is to have the co-responder model, which has mental health workers working alongside the police, because, as you can expect, the police are not the experts in mental health. However, increasingly their work is in this area, and as a way to deal with that, of course, they have the co-response model.

In terms of training, this issue has arisen in recent times, I know that there are a couple of reviews under way, but I’m also aware of the increased training that happens to the front line through the work that I have already spoken about: the increase in training for our tactical response teams, which will mean we will have Armed Offenders Squad (AOS) - trained staff on shift, and that we’re actually now looking at national standards in terms of the AOS training.

The last thing I’d like to say is in terms of a concern that I have as Minister, and one that I’ve expressed often, about the disproportionate rates of arrest or engagement with Māori and Pacific, and how, as police, they are going to deal with that. I’m very supportive of the work that the Commissioner of Police has commissioned in terms of understanding policing delivery, looking at issues of bias and looking at how police make decisions about who they stop, who they talk to, and how they go on to make those charges. I hope that satisfies the member’s questions, and I thank her for them.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I’m going to be quite short and sharp with some of the questions. The first one is that New Zealand Police have obtained only 6 percent of their 80 percent key performance indicators for firearms administration in the licensing realm. My first question is: what percentage is the Minister expecting Police to fulfil out of that 80 percent this year—so, come June, and also come December 2022.

I also have questions around the fact that Police have just released an extensive consultation document on clubs and ranges at a time when most people are involved with either the roar or the upcoming duck-shooting season. Does the Minister believe that allowing only a six-week time frame on what will become a community safety issue is good practice? Does the Minister have confidence in Police to be able to administer the firearms licensing regime along with the clubs and ranges administration regime, and will she confirm that there’ll be no further firearms licensing delays as a result of the new work for the administrators?

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