Oral Questions

1. to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?

The IMF released its annual review for New Zealand last week, where they commended the country for our strong economic and fiscal position—in particular, the Government’s successful health-led approach to the COVID-19 pandemic. They noted the economy had rebounded strongly in 2021, with record low unemployment. The IMF also noted that our relatively low debt levels compared with many of the countries we compare ourselves against—

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Which you inherited.

💬 SPEAKER: Order!

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: —provides substantial headroom to respond to further challenges. While economic growth is forecast to slow in 2022, the resilience of the economy and our strong fiscal position means we’re in a good position to support—

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Which this Government inherited.

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: —New Zealanders as we deal with the challenges arising from the ongoing pandemic, Mr Goldsmith—and it would pay to listen to the IMF this time.

💬 Barbara Edmonds: What did the report say about fiscal policy supporting the economy?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well, in the characteristic style of the IMF, they said that in New Zealand, “The normalization of macroeconomic policies had started, as fiscal COVID-19 support measures have been scaled down”. They did point out, however, that “During the exit from the exceptional, crisis-related policy support, the pace of … [withdrawal] needs to be calibrated carefully.” In response to the Omicron outbreak, the IMF welcomed the limited and targeted support to businesses in need “without adding materially to aggregate demand pressures.” The IMF also noted the temporary reduction of fuel taxes provides relief at the pump to motorists, though it does favour relief to consumers dealing with cost of living increases being targeted at vulnerable households. We are making sure that our spending continues to be carefully prioritised and targeted at the areas and people that require it the most, and from this Friday, 1 April, we are supporting low and middle income New Zealanders dealing with cost of living increases through increases to Working for Families, superannuation, benefit levels, student allowances, and the minimum wage, while the winter energy payment kicks in from the beginning of May.

💬 Barbara Edmonds: What did the IMF say about other fiscal options to support the economy?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: In comments to the media following a briefing on the report, the IMF said that it was not recommending any reduction in the overall level of taxation at the moment. It is not the right time to cut taxes as it would just add to inflation pressures at a time when many households are already under significant stress—

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Michael Cullen’s return. You’ll never get puddin’!

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Mr Goldsmith, the financial genius, helps me again. The IMF has also made a number of recommendations in their report—

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: More genius than you are.

💬 SPEAKER: Order!

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: —that while we are always grateful to receive, we would not always agree to adopt. I would note that we are not actively considering changes to corporate tax rates, while we have already committed to not implement any new taxes in this term, such as a capital gains tax.

Question No. 2—COVID-19 Response

2. to the Minister for COVID-19 Response: Is he concerned about the safety of at-risk communities following the announcement that protections under the COVID-19 traffic light system have changed and will change further?

Preserving the safety of every New Zealander has been the Government’s key priority and at the core of every decision that we have made throughout the pandemic. Recognising the disproportionate effect of the virus and that it can have on certain communities, including Māori, Pacific, immunocompromised, and disabled whānau, our response has and will continue to focus on ensuring that these groups are appropriately protected. The changes announced last week, informed by the latest evidence from here and overseas, have been specifically designed to make life simpler and closer to normal, but whilst also retaining the things that have proven to be effective in reducing the spread of the virus, like the use of face masks, capacity limits, testing, and isolation.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: What would he say to the founder of parenting support group Awhi Ngā Mātua, Elizabeth Goodwin, who described last week’s changes as a “cruel blow for whānau with disabled and immunocompromised children”?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I would disagree with that assessment. The Government has been acutely aware throughout the pandemic of the potential effect on vulnerable communities of COVID-19, and that has absolutely informed all of the decisions that we have taken.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: Does he support setting up indoor clean air standards to improve the safety of schools and workplaces?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: The work that we’ve been doing to provide carbon dioxide monitors for every school in the country and to provide portable air cleaners, where a demonstrable case exists for them, is already making a difference within our schools. We are fortunate in that most of our schools actually have very good ventilation already and good airflows already. But, of course, we continue to look for where we can make further improvements.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: Will he ensure N95 masks are provided for teachers and staff at all schools; and if not, why not?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: N95 masks are being provided to our front-line health workers. Our education workers are being provided with what we typically term “surgical masks”—the paper masks with the blue fronts that many members in the Chamber are wearing at the moment—they have been supplied to all teachers. We’ve also supplied enough for schools to have a back up supply for students, including some small-sized masks, so that schools have them available for their young students.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: What steps is he taking to address the impacts of long COVID and ensure people who are unable to work get the support they need to recover, particularly in Māori and Pasifika communities, as these communities have experienced higher rates of infection?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: In terms of income support that’s supplied, that’s not something that I have ministerial responsibility for. But we are continuing to look at the evidence around long COVID and the effect that it could have for the number of people that could be affected by long COVID. It would be fair to say that the international evidence on this is still continuing to emerge, and it’s something that we are following very closely.

💬 Teanau Tuiono: Will he maintain the traffic light system and strengthen that system if the next waves of subsequent variants are more severe; and if not, why not?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: We are committed to the traffic light system. It is absolutely the right system for New Zealand at the moment. But what we’ve always done throughout the pandemic is respond to the latest emerging international evidence around the effect of new variants, and that’s what we’ll continue to do.

Question No. 3—Social Development and Employment

3. to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What changes to income support come into effect on 1 April?

This Friday will see a raft of changes come into effect, including the continuation of the biggest lift to main benefits in decades. For many years, the rate of main benefit has fallen further behind the average wage, and it’s placed many people, including children, in undue hardship. In addition to indexing main benefits to wage growth, we are further lifting main benefits so they don’t fall further behind. The Ministry of Social Development’s analysis shows that from 1 April, a couple on a benefit with children will now be, on average, $237 a week better off than they were when the Government took office in 2017. As a Government, we have worked hard to lift as many children out of poverty as possible, and while raising the level of main benefit is only one way to achieve our goal, it is an incredibly important step in the right direction.

Tāmati Coffey: What changes to income support will help working families?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: In addition to main benefit increases, childcare assistance income thresholds will also begin to increase annually in line with net average wage growth. Income thresholds for eligibility for childcare assistance have been frozen since 2010. The growth in wages in the last 12 years has meant that the number of low-income parents and caregivers who can access childcare assistance has been steadily declining. This change is the right thing to do and will support low-income working families who need to access childcare. Working for Families tax credit, Best Start tax credit, and family tax credit will also increase from 1 April, providing 346,000 families with an average of an extra $20 per week. This is a Government that is targeting support at families who need it most to support with key costs of living like childcare.

Tāmati Coffey: What changes will be happening to the rates of superannuation?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: The superannuation annual general adjustment comes into effect from 1 April. Single superannuitants living alone will see a rise of $52 per fortnight, and couples who both qualify will see an extra $80 per fortnight in total from 1 April. On top of that, as of 1 May, people on superannuation will receive extra every week thanks to our winter energy payment, which provides extra income for over 1 million New Zealanders.

Question No. 4—Prime Minister

4. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government’s statements and actions?

Yes. In particular, I stand by this Government’s plan to accelerate our economic recovery and lift the incomes of New Zealanders, with a number of changes that will come into effect this week on April 1. Compared to 2017, these changes will see over 100,000 beneficiaries with children better off by an average $175 per week, increasing to $207 per week during the 2022 winter period; nearly 350,000 beneficiaries better off by an average of $109 per week, increasing to $133 per week during the 2022 winter period; adjusting the income thresholds for childcare assistance annually, in line with average wage growth, benefiting 1,000 families, or around 1,500 children, after being frozen by the previous National Government. We’re also increasing minimum wage, student allowances, and superannuation. Our economic recovery plan is all about making sure we focus on supporting New Zealanders through this economic recovery. There’s no silver bullet that will fix the cost of living, but we have a plan and are implementing a range of measures that, together, will make a difference.

💬 Christopher Luxon: What is her plan, if any, to help the average Kiwi household—the squeezed middle—who don’t qualify for Working for Families payments, when ASB expects their cost of living to increase by another $150 a week this year, on top of the near $100 a year increase they saw last year?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Given the member has referenced the ASB report, I would again just acknowledge that, in that same report, it pointed out that, since the end of 2017, when Labour came into office, disposable incomes have been, and will remain, higher than consumer spending in 20 out of 21 quarters, through to the end of 2022—a point that, of course, we’ve continually made in this House. We of course acknowledge, though, that we are in a period where the contributing factors of the global economic recovery from COVID-19 and, of course, the war in Ukraine are causing an impact on the cost of living. We’ve already seen the response: the universal application of that lift in fuel excise of 25c per litre and the road-user charge (RUC) is aimed at helping every consumer who, of course, relies on those petrol prices to be as reasonable as possible. The second point is that, actually, 60 percent of families will be reached by the changes that we’re making to the family tax credit. That is a large portion. Working for Families does reach into middle-income earners, and that’s where we’ve increased the family tax credit.

💬 Christopher Luxon: What does she say to the average Kiwi household—the squeezed middle—who are facing—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! I’ve let the member go, but time for a bit of developmental feedback, and that is that unnecessary phrases, like the one that he’s used twice, should not be part of questions. They’re not required for the sense.

💬 David Seymour: Point of order. I think I know where that term comes from, I’ve heard it many times from members of the public who self-describe that way. Now, surely, it’s in order for a member—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! The member will resume his seat. I have ruled; the member will not argue.

💬 Christopher Luxon: What does she say to the average Kiwi household, who is facing a total increase to their cost of living of almost $13,000 in just two years?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: What I’d come back to is that you’ll see, of course, the response that we, as a Government, have made in response to what we see in this present period where inflation is high. We know it’s having an impact. It’s why we moved quickly on fuel. It’s why, at the end of last year, we moved on the family tax credit. It’s why you see that raft of changes, which I’ll spare the House from repeating again, on 1 April. But what I would also say is that the kinds of proposals we’re seeing from the Opposition, which, for them, would mean about $2.15 in their pocket, would also mean about $8,000 in the Leader of the Opposition’s pocket. That is not a focus on them. A focus on them is bringing down the cost of healthcare and making it free for their kids to go to the doctor; getting rid of school donations so they’re not having to face that every year, when our education system is meant to be free; putting free lunches in schools; and lifting the wages of teachers, nurses, police. Those are the things that make a difference in the long term; not $2 for them and $8,000 for you.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order!

💬 Hon Member: That’s out of order.

💬 SPEAKER: Thank you. I’ve told Mr Goldsmith off about that twice today.

💬 Christopher Luxon: What’s her explanation to a family on an average household income for why she has refused to, at the very least, provide them with an inflation adjustment to their tax bill when their cost of living is set to increase by almost $13,000 in just two years?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I have already said, the comparison there is clear. The difference that we can make for 346,000 families is greater through the family tax credit than, for instance, broad-brush changes which will come at the cost of investment in services like health and education and would also benefit the wealthiest the most. We have made a decision that we want to make sure that we’re doing more for those who are feeling the cost of living impacts the most—our low- and middle-income families—but we also have a duty to make sure that they can still rely on health and education; with that member’s tax plan, they can’t.

💬 David Seymour: What does her Government have to offer for families who aspire to make and keep more of their own money in a growing economy, instead of hoping that she’ll give them some sort of handout?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I absolutely dispute the way that the member is characterising a tax credit.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Does she think that inflation of 5.9 percent, almost double the rate in Australia, will result in more Kiwis looking overseas for opportunities they can’t get here?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: With unemployment at record low levels, there are significant opportunities here, and that has been a focus of us as a Government: to make sure that, as we come through what has been a health and economic crisis, we have ensured that people have maintained that contact with their employer, and that jobs have been available, and training opportunities. For instance, our Apprenticeship Boost has meant people have stayed in training and had new training opportunities. That, in turn, will help with our construction industry, which is seeing a boom at the moment and needs a greater workforce. All of that adds up to a place where there are opportunities in New Zealand. We do have to, however, support New Zealanders through this period that the rest of the world is experiencing as well.

💬 Hon Michael Wood: Does she stand by her Government’s policy of introducing fair-pay agreements, a form of sector-based bargaining similar to Australia?

💬 Nicola Grigg: Wait for the polling!

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! Which member was that? Which was the loudest member? Was it you, Ms Grigg?

💬 Nicola Grigg: Possibly.

💬 SPEAKER: Possibly the loudest. I think we’ll go to the Prime Minister.

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: We absolutely do, and the member is right to point out that this is a mechanism that has been in place in Australia for some time. And it wasn’t that long ago that I did hear members on that side of the House talking about the difference in wages between New Zealand and Australia. It is important that we make sure that we have a situation where the wages and conditions of those who are working in often the most precarious work are improved, because that equally comes at a cost to all of us.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Why does the average Kiwi work for an hour to earn what the average Australian earns in 45 minutes?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Because of the productivity issues that we have, and that is exactly what things like fair-pay agreements are about. Welcome, welcome, Mr Luxon, to the Labour Party.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Why has the Minister of Finance stopped talking about productivity?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: He never has. In fact, I would welcome the chance for the member to have a meeting, perhaps with our Minister for workplace relations, because it seems that perhaps he takes a more favourable view of fair-pay agreements than he thinks.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Has she been advised whether prices are expected to continue growing faster than wages this year; and if so, does she at least accept that two consecutive years of declining real incomes means Kiwis are going backwards fast under Labour?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I refer to my original answer where, in the ASB report, there is the acknowledgment of the fact that wage growth has outstripped the growth in the cost of living for 20 out of 21 of the quarters since we came into office in 2017. That is not, of course, to diminish the period that we are in now, and that is exactly why we moved on excise. It’s exactly why we’ve halved the cost of public transport. It’s why we’ve made the raft of 1 April changes. It’s why we’re increasing Government support for those on welfare, and it’s why we’ve seen the increase in support for our superannuitants: $50 per fortnight for a single, $80 for a couple. It is why we’ve increased the family tax credit—all of that whilst maintaining critical services. The member’s proposal to give himself a tax cut would not allow any of that.

💬 Christopher Luxon: Is she honestly saying that Kiwis who’ve seen their real incomes fall over the past year shouldn’t be concerned because inflation four years ago wasn’t as bad?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: No. Obviously that is not what I said.

💬 David Seymour: Can the Prime Minister explain to New Zealanders how her policy of putting large groups of workers all on the same contract will make them more productive—that is, produce more so they can take home more?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Well, first of all, the member is actually neglecting to acknowledge that for many it is a lift to the same rates that some in the sectors are already receiving. The Minister, when he launched fair-pay agreements, did so alongside employers who support fair-pay agreements, because it’s an acknowledgment that there are some sectors where there is a race to the bottom in terms of wages and conditions. This creates a fairer playing field. It means that you will see innovation in some sectors where, instead of pursuing cheap labour, we will see innovation and improvement in productivity.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: The employer was probably MBIE!

💬 SPEAKER: Mr Goldsmith, the last one some of us would consider witty, but they certainly haven’t been rare and reasonable.

Question No. 5—Education

5. to the Associate Minister of Education: What work is the Government progressing to lift student achievement in maths and literacy?

Last week, the Government was pleased to release two new strategies that set out our plan to improve outcomes for Kiwi kids in maths, literacy, communication: Te Reo Matatini and Pāngarau. It’s time to do things differently, and these strategies provide a vision and direction that we need to head, in order to improve learning over the next five years. It is fundamental that teachers are supported and have what they need to be good teachers and—as a former teacher—I know firsthand how important this is. We are fixing assessments so that kids are assessed as individuals and supports are tailored to what the learner needs—not a one-size-fits-all check-box exercise. We’ll ensure opportunities for all young people and particularly for those who have been underserved in the past, by tackling inequity in our system.

💬 Marja Lubeck: How were the strategies developed?

💬 Hon JAN TINETTI: These strategies are evidence based, and draw on domestic and international best practice, and expert advice. However, importantly, they have also been developed for the New Zealand context and ensure that we place the learner at the centre, and leave nothing to chance. They have also been developed in partnership with a range of educational leaders, teachers, learners, parents and whānau, and others from the wider community. This has included the perspectives of Māori and Pacific people, professional associations, unions, employers and industry representatives, members of the disability sector, and expert advisory groups such as the NZC, Curriculum Voices Group.

💬 Marja Lubeck: What do these strategies mean for teachers, parents, and students?

💬 Hon JAN TINETTI: These strategies will guide action to shape the early learning and schooling system, to deliver equity and excellence. Previously, in English medium, the curriculum for maths and literacy has been too vague for students and, for Māori medium, curriculum Pāngarau and Te Reo Matatini were a translation of the English medium resources that missed the mark for our ākonga. Students will now be able to enjoy a curriculum that is clear, engaging, and relevant. Parents and whānau can feel confident we are developing a curriculum that supports their children’s learning progress and will provide lifelong maths and literacy skills. As for teachers, confidence comes with knowledge, so there will be a stronger focus on these subjects in initial teacher education and professional learning development.

💬 Erica Stanford: Why is it, when she says that the strategy document is evidence based, that the Science of Reading findings—the most up to date body of research—is never even mentioned in the document?

💬 Hon JAN TINETTI: Very simply, that this is the strategy that oversees the whole of the development in literacy and numeracy—[Interruption]

💬 SPEAKER: Order! We’ve had lots of complaints of noise overriding and—

💬 Hon Member: How many?

💬 SPEAKER: Can the member resume—hundreds, and the member should know not to interject. We’ve had lots of complaints about roars of noise overriding the ability of the public to hear, and we had just one of those now—not even a full sentence into the beginning of the Minister’s reply to the supplementary question. The Minister will start again.

💬 Hon JAN TINETTI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just to reiterate that this is the strategic document that shows the overall strategy and the road map towards where we are heading in literacy. There are other important parts of this that are progressing at this particular time, including the refresh of the curriculum. As I have said, these strategies are based on evidence, and the evidence shows that there is no one-size-fits-all, and I would actually point that member towards the references in the back of the document that fully show the broad range of evidence that we are using in the production of this strategy.

Question No. 6—Finance

6. to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with ASB’s assessments that “higher consumer prices and debt servicing costs could raise household weekly outgoings by an average of around $150 per week over 2022” with income growth unlikely to keep pace?

There are many parts of the ASB report that I agree with. These include the report’s acknowledgment that higher global food commodity prices, higher global oil prices, and the impact of the war in Ukraine are all having an effect on the inflation being experienced by New Zealanders. I acknowledge that a number of New Zealanders are facing a cost of living crisis due to these factors. That’s why the Government has moved quickly to ease the pressure on New Zealand families by, for example, cutting fuel excise by 25c, which has flowed through immediately to prices at the pump. With respect to the number quoted by the member, it is hypothetical and relies on a number of factors and calculations that are highly uncertain. In response to the second part of the member’s question, I would note that the ASB forecasts that, on average, over 2022, household disposable incomes will be higher than consumer spending, giving a positive savings rate over the year. And as the House may already be aware, the report indicates that since the end of 2017, when Labour came into Government, disposable incomes have been, and will remain, higher than consumer spending in 20 out of 21 quarters through to the end of 2022.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does he deny calculations showing a typical New Zealand household experienced a $5,000 increase in costs last year, and is he concerned about the difficult choices households will face this year as they struggle to absorb an estimated additional $7,800 in costs?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: In answer to the first part of the member’s question, I note that the ASB report is not actually a typical household but, rather, a “stylised average”, which includes the household paying both mortgage and rental costs. So those numbers do need to be carefully looked at. As I said in my original answer, we acknowledge that many New Zealand families are doing it tough, and that’s why we’re supporting them.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does he acknowledge that there are hundreds of thousands of taxpaying New Zealanders who are not eligible for Working for Families or Government benefits but who also face a cost of living crisis, and why doesn’t he think they deserve income tax relief?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Because the package that the member’s party is offering up would see those on the highest incomes benefit the most, would see a benefit to property speculators, and would see those on lower incomes getting $2 a week—all, at the same time, putting in danger investment in health, education, housing, and other Government services. The member’s plan doesn’t add up.

💬 Nicola Willis: Well, what does he say to Kris, who wrote to me, saying—

💬 Hon Members: Ha, ha!

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order!

💬 Nicola Willis: Shall I start again, Mr Speaker?

💬 SPEAKER: I’m sure it wasn’t Hipkins, but carry on.

💬 Nicola Willis: What does he say to Kris, who wrote to me saying—“Kris” with a K—“I can’t get Working for Families. I earn too much for any help. The Government is making it harder and harder for people on an average wage to live. I am angry and upset that I have to work harder and harder every week just to live.”?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: What I would say to Kris and to other New Zealanders is that this Government is making sure that we continue to invest in health, in education, and in housing, and all of the public services that they rely upon, and that if they were to take the National Party’s tax proposal, those on the highest incomes would benefit the most, those who are speculating in housing would get a tax break, and those on the lowest incomes would get $2. There are always difficult choices to be made in households and in Governments. On this side of the House, we believe we’ve got the balance right. A balance doesn’t come from $8,000 to that member and $2 to somebody on the minimum wage.

💬 Nicola Willis: Why does he continue to argue that wages are keeping up with the cost of living and why is it that so many Kiwis are feeling worse off, including Porirua resident Mykie Sagar, who was reported by Stuff this weekend as saying, “I thought with all the extra work we’ve had that I would have a small fortune somewhere, but I don’t, I just don’t know where it’s gone.”?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: On this side of the House, we’re committed to making sure that we do the long-term things we need to do right: to invest in our roads, to invest in our public transport, to make sure that we build houses—not to sell the houses off like the previous Government did. The member’s proposal will benefit the wealthiest the most. It’s just the same old National Party; New Zealanders wouldn’t be better off with it.

💬 Nicola Willis: Well, what does he say to Jamie, who wrote to me saying, “Now I’m 40, still doing 50 to 60 hours a week, struggling to survive, and starting to wonder if I’d be better off on a benefit.”, and why won’t the Minister deliver income tax relief for hard-working New Zealanders like Jamie?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: On this side of the House, we know that New Zealanders want and need good quality public health, good quality education, good quality housing. For the nine years the National Party were in office, every single one of those was undermined. The member can’t have it all ways. She can’t say she’s going to reduce debt, cut taxes, and keep up that spending. It’s the same Bermuda Triangle that Paul Goldsmith was in, and unless the National Party come up with new ideas, it’s just same old National again.

Question No. 7—Transport

7. to the Minister of Transport: What recent steps has the Government taken to support New Zealanders through the current global energy shock and associated transport costs?

In March, we announced moves to reduce the costs of fuel by lowering fuel excise duty and road-user charges, in response to the global energy shock following the Russian invasion of Ukraine. We also announced half-price fares for public transport to encourage commuters to consider changes to the way that they travel at a lower cost. Changes to the fuel excise duty were immediate, and I’ve now confirmed that road-user charges will be cut by 36 percent across all legislated rates, coming into effect in late April. The scope for public transport services has been confirmed and will include key additional services such as the Capital Connection; Te Huia; and the Total Mobility services, that are so important to our disability communities. These changes ensure that it will make a meaningful difference to more New Zealanders and provide more options for them to move around our towns, cities, and regions.

💬 Greg O’Connor: Why is it important that these key additional services were included?

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: In addition to the inclusion of bus and train services across the country, the inclusion of services such as the Capital Connection, Te Huia, and Total Mobility recognise the range of different transport modes and the needs of commuters, especially those who have particular needs, and travel between regions—and I note in particular the advocacy we’ve received for support for the Total Mobility services for our disability community, and we’re very pleased to support that. By reducing the cost barrier for these services, we’re providing more options for commuters to get around, which helps us to reduce carbon emissions. It reduces the cost for those commuters and gives people more choices.

💬 Greg O’Connor: Why was it important for the Government to move quickly in making these changes?

💬 Hon MICHAEL WOOD: The global energy shock brought on by the invasion of Ukraine had a particularly acute and rapid effect on the cost of fuel worldwide, and New Zealand was no exception. We recognise that the flow-on effects at the pump were having a real impact for Kiwi families, and, by moving quickly and decisively, we’ve been able to mitigate those impacts and reduce the cost barrier for the users of public transport services as well.

Question No. 8—Police

8. to the Minister of Police: Does she stand by her statement, “The reality is that this Government has never been more active in targeting the gangs and criminal leaders and getting them off the streets”; and if so, how does she reconcile that statement with the over 40 percent increase in gang membership since October 2017?

Yes, this Government is committed to combating the harm caused by gangs and organised crime through a variety of measures, including amending the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act to hit the gangs in their pockets, introducing firearms prohibition orders to give police more tools to tackle gun crime, and continuing to invest record amounts into our police to provide them with the resources they need to do their job—including 700 additional organised crime staff by June next year. In answer to the second question, the member is referring to the National Gang List, an intelligence tool designed to give police a high-level understanding of the gang environment. It was never designed to be an accurate State statistical count of gang membership in New Zealand. This Government will continue to support police in their work to disrupt organised crime and gang membership.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Are Kiwis right to be more worried about gangs and gang violence today than they were when Labour came to office?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: There is no question that we must continue to disrupt gangs and organised crime networks. This Government will continue to support police in their efforts to crack down on gangs through operations such as Tauwhiro, legislation introducing firearms prohibition orders, and by funding the largest ever police workforce. We’re putting a record number of police on the beat with a specific focus on gangs and organised crime, and we’ve ramped up our efforts to hit gangs where it hurts: in their pockets, seizing $500 million in cash and assets from gangs and criminals in the last four years.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Is gang-related violence increasing or decreasing under her watch?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: There’s no doubt that this Government has worked hard to support the police in their efforts to put pressure on gangs. And if I can point to some operations: Operation Tauwhiro, a thousand arrests and 52 kilograms of meth—

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Point of order, Mr Speaker.

💬 SPEAKER: A point of order, the Hon Mark—I hope the member’s not going to be disagreeing with an answer, because you know that’s not a point of order, don’t you?

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Well, what I’m raising, Mr Speaker, is the fact that that was a very clear, short, concise question.

💬 SPEAKER: It was, and we’ll let the Minister try and answer it, or at least address it. We haven’t got there yet; I think we all accept that.

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Operation Trout: five arrests and 10 kilograms of meth stopped at the border; Operation Selena: 24 arrests and two properties and five vehicles seized; Operation Weirton: six arrests and over 600 kilograms of meth seized. The charging—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order! I don’t want to reiterate what Mr Mitchell has said, but the member has now gone on for a very long time, and she hasn’t addressed what was a pretty simple question.

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: The charging rate—[Interruption]

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Who said that? Who interjected then?

💬 Simeon Brown: I think it was me.

💬 SPEAKER: You think it was you? You will stand, withdraw and apologise, and sit on a last warning.

💬 Simeon Brown: I withdraw and apologise.

💬 SPEAKER: That seat’s infectious!

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: The charging rate against identified gang members is 92 percent in the year to date, which has gone up under our watch. We will continue to support police in their efforts to put pressure on gangs.

💬 Nicole McKee: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Minister, how many 501s, which the Government likes to blame for gang violence, are actually on the National Gang List? And do 501s still make up just 1.7 percent of that list?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: If that member would care to put that question in writing, given it is one that is not on notice, I’d be happy to respond to her.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Why have the people of Kaikohe been subjected to open gang warfare and violence in their streets?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: Police have responded to recent gang tensions by deploying more staff to Kaikohe. Police have also made a number of arrests in relation to recent gang tensions, and will continue to deploy more staff into these areas if required.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: Point of order. Mr Speaker, that answer was to the Police’s response. The question was about cause, and none of the answer referred to cause.

💬 SPEAKER: Can the member just repeat the question to me—I’ve lost what it was.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Yes, Mr Speaker. Why have the people of Kaikohe been subjected to open gang warfare and violence in their streets?

💬 SPEAKER: No, well I think that the response did address—at least, attempt to intervene in—that issue.

💬 Hon Mark Mitchell: Why is the brazen violent behaviour such as we saw on the Waikato Expressway, where gang members brutally assaulted a motorist, becoming more common under her watch?

💬 Hon POTO WILLIAMS: As I’ve already said to that member: under this Government, we’ve put more resource into the Police and put more cops on the beat to ensure that their response is as adequate as it can be. And I would point to that National Government, when they were in office, freezing resources and dropping police numbers. You cannot do more with less, Mr Mitchell; you have to have sufficient cops and sufficient resources to deal with the issue, and this Government stands behind our police every single day of the year.

💬 SPEAKER: Right, I’m just—sorry, before I call David Seymour, I am going to say to the Hon Mr Goldsmith he will not interject for the rest of question time. I think we haven’t got a single supplementary answer without at least one interjection from him, and—[Interruption] I think there’s some people who don’t really want to stay here.

Question No. 9—Prime Minister

9. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government’s statements and policies?

Yes.

💬 David Seymour: Does she stand by her statement at Waitangi in 2019 that “Equality is our foundation”, and, if so, does she believe that our constitutional foundation should be equal political rights for all New Zealanders?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: In answer to the first part of the question, yes.

💬 David Seymour: Does she stand by her Government’s policy of co-governance for three waters infrastructure, and, if so, can she explain how being appointed based on ancestry makes people better at managing infrastructure than if they are elected by the users of the service?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: There are a number of areas where, of course, we work alongside Māori on the basis of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. If the member wishes to distil down his views in Te Tiriti into the way that he just described, that’s a matter for him. I am happy, though, to respond to the general question around how we’ve come to the governance arrangements we have for three waters. This is an issue that we are tackling as a Government, not because it was top on anyone’s agenda in this House but because we have to face the brutal fact that, in New Zealand, thousands of New Zealanders get sick from their drinking water every single year—the fact that just last week, when I visited Tokomaru Bay, there are people there who had no access to water because of a severe weather event. They’re now on a boil notice. That happens for some New Zealanders every day of the week. It is not acceptable, so we need change.

In making that change and developing entities across the country that will have the role of maintaining public ownership of our critical water assets but ensuring that we have regional representation, we’ve put forward a proposal that that regional representation consist of mana whenua, as happens in local government every day, alongside local authority representatives. I would point out to the member that recently, when we went to a group of local government representatives to ask them for their views on those arrangements, they came back in support of the regional representative group structure we had proposed.

💬 David Seymour: Point of order. It was actually a very simple question about how the composition of governance bodies for three waters would improve the performance and outcomes of infrastructure management. Now, the Minister described a whole lot of features of the policy, but she never came close to addressing that actual question.

💬 SPEAKER: I think she did address the question.

💬 David Seymour: Does the Prime Minister stand by her Government’s policy of having Ngāi Tahu appoint two councillors to Environment Canterbury alongside democratically elected councillors, and, if so, can she explain how that policy will deliver better air and water quality for the people of Canterbury?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: If the member wishes to speak to the arrangements that actually exist across the board in many areas of local government, including currently on some of the water issues down south or even maunga management up north, the member takes issue with that. He may wish to reflect on his role in the time that National was in Government, where many of those arrangements were established. What I would be interested in is, actually, if the member could articulate what it is that has been generated by those groups and those arrangements that the member finds particularly problematic; what is it about local government actually acknowledging that, to date, we haven’t had fair representation of Māori in local government; and what it is about the changes that have come into place that the member finds particularly problematic? Let’s discuss the issue, rather than what I’m worried about is just blatant politicisation.

💬 David Seymour: Does she agree with this statement: “All political authority comes from the people by democratic means including universal suffrage, regular and free elections with a secret ballot.”, and, if so, how is that consistent with more and more governance roles being appointed along ethnic lines instead of elected?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Of course, I support the longstanding principles of democracy in this nation, but the idea that that cannot sit alongside Te Tiriti o Waitangi, I take issue with that. We are more sophisticated than that, surely, than to take such a simplistic view.

💬 David Seymour: Does she see any distinction between co-governance arrangements for specific taonga returned through Treaty settlements, such as the arrangements for Auckland’s maunga, on the one hand, and co-governance of entities that did not exist in 1840, such as public healthcare systems and three waters infrastructure, on the other, or is co-governance now a wholesale policy, regardless of that distinction?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Perhaps we should come at it from a different angle for the member. We have not, since the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi, had the Māori Health Authority. Yet what we have had is a national health system that has generated an outcome where Māori die younger than other New Zealanders and where Māori have worse health outcomes, for instance, in cancer care and treatment for every cancer there is other than melanoma. It is not right in this country that because you’re Māori, you are often sicker and you have poorer treatment in our health system. So we are responding to that, yes, with an entity that didn’t exist before, because this is a problem that has existed because we have not confronted it as we should.

Question No. 10—Emergency Management

10. to the Minister for Emergency Management: How has the Government responded to the Tairāwhiti and Hawke’s Bay floods?

On 24 March, I announced that the Government would provide $175,000 to the Gisborne District Council for a Tai Rāwhiti mayoral relief fund to support a community that has had to deal with five significant weather events in the past year, alongside COVID. On 25 March, my colleague the Hon Damien O’Connor declared a medium-scale adverse event for the flood damage across the Tai Rāwhiti district and Hawke’s Bay region, unlocking $150,000 of Government support for farmers and growers as part of the clean-up. The Ministry of Social Development has activated civil defence payments to those needing immediate support, and New Zealand Defence Force personnel were deployed to the region and distributed food, water, and medical supplies.

💬 Anna Lorck: What further support is being considered?

💬 Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: In addition, the New Zealand Defence Force has deployed a reconnaissance crew that was deployed on Monday to determine what further assistance the region requires, including, particularly, roading requirements and support. A report detailing these requirements is expected to be provided to the National Emergency Management Agency and the Civil Defence Emergency Management Group within the next couple of days. In addition, Waka Kotahi and its roading contractors have been working tirelessly to clean up the debris across the State highway network and to safely restore lifelines in and out of the region.

💬 Anna Lorck: What roles have the local community and volunteers played in the response?

💬 Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: Alongside the Prime Minister this week, I have witnessed firsthand the many volunteers and communities reaching out to support Te Tai Rāwhiti and the Hawke’s Bay communities impacted by the weather events. These communities, often hailed as resilient, are tired and they have been operating in isolated areas, but nevertheless they have rallied together to support each other. I want to acknowledge the Tai Rāwhiti civil defence emergency management groups in particular that have enabled the communities to stay well connected, and I also acknowledge the role of Ngāti Porou and the hapū leads that have rounded around to support the communities. I commend the efforts of all of those that have been engaged and continue to be engaged in the current state of emergency that is occurring in the region now.

Question No. 11—Commerce and Consumer Affairs

11. to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: Kia ora e te Pīka. Otirā, kia ora tātou e te Whare. Tuatahi, kei te tangi atu ki tērā kuia, Kahurangi June Jackson e takoto mai rā ki runga i tōna marae – haere atu rā, e kui.

[Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you to the House. First, I would like to acknowledge the elder Dame June Jackson, who is lying in State on her marae—I bid you farewell, my lady.]

My question is to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. Does he stand by his statement that “competition in the retail grocery market is not working”; if so, what steps will he take, if any, to break up the supermarket duopoly?

I do want to acknowledge the member’s question and the respects to Dame June and agree with those sentiments. In answer to the question, yes, I stand by my statement that the report is clear: competition in the retail grocery sector is not working, and consumers will get better prices, range, and quality when action is taken to address this. It’s clear that we need to improve competition and that there is a desire to see quick action. That is what we are doing. My officials are currently working through the recommendations of the 607-page report, but I have been clear that we will not rule out exploring further measures if the recommendations in the report don’t achieve the level of competition we need. We’re looking at establishing a new regulator and dispute resolution scheme, developing a mandatory code of conduct, and how we can ban land covenants to free up space for new supermarkets. These actions can have a real impact on improving competition in New Zealand. This issue is simply too important not to get a response right on, on behalf of New Zealand consumers.

💬 Rawiri Waititi: What is his response to the Commerce Commission’s recommendations that Government should free up land and supply chains for independent grocers, considering that the current market locks out the potential for tangata whenua - owned supermarkets that operate with Māori values?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: The commission has recommended, in terms of supply chains, that there’s a code of conduct that changes the relationship between the supermarkets or the retail grocery sector and their suppliers. Indeed, I do want to acknowledge in particular the role of Māori in our grocery sector as store owners, suppliers, and consumers, because in particular Māori have a strong role as growers and primary producers, including owning 50 percent of the fishing quota; 30 percent of lamb, sheep, and beef production; and 10 percent of dairy production and kiwifruit. The commission made recommendations to address the imbalance of power between the major retailers and their suppliers, including the code of conduct and a regulator overseeing it. In respect of land covenants, they are something I’m also seeking to ban.

💬 Rawiri Waititi: Will Government regulate the sector to stop price gauging at our supermarkets and prevent low-income people being lumped with regular cost increases—like in my electorate of Waiariki, where cabbages seem to cost up to $12 and cauliflower costs more than $10—just to feed their whānau; if not, why not?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: The Commerce Commission found that competition was not working as it could be and should be in the sector. Improving the conditions for competition should lead to better range, prices, quality, and service across the sector. That is what the study is about. We agree with its findings and we look forward to responding to the recommendations.

Ricardo Menéndez March: Does he accept that the duopoly’s estimated $430 million in excess yearly profit shows people are being ripped off; if so, will he ensure that the option of a publicly owned competitor is on the table to address this?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I have said we have accepted the findings from the Commerce Commission. Even on their most conservative estimate, which is more conservative than the one the member draws on, they find that the supermarkets are making excess profits of $1 million a day across New Zealand. That is a substantial finding and warrants a substantial response. In respect of a Government owned or backed intervention, that is not something the commission recommends. They believe creating the right conditions for competition is what is essential. They don’t see Government as having specialist expertise in selling groceries in particular. They also warn against setting up a Government-owned or backed wholesaler simply on the basis of their analysis around how competition has improved around the world. That said, we are absolutely committed to the findings in the report and are working on the response to the recommendations so that we can see better competition in the sector and see consumers get sharper prices and get a fair deal at the checkout.

Question No. 12—Social Development and Employment

12. to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: How many people, if any, had received jobseeker support for three consecutive years or longer as at the December 2021 quarter and how many people, if any, had received jobseeker support for three consecutive years or longer as at the December 2017 quarter?

In December 2017, there were 36,906 people receiving jobseeker assistance for longer than three years; in December 2021, that number was 55,116—a difference of 18,210. We have been enduring a pandemic and the overall numbers of people on benefit have gone up, and, as you can imagine, that means in each time period the number of people on benefit have gone up as well. There are a group of New Zealanders who struggle to find employment during periods of economic shock and are further disadvantaged. This is why Government has increased our focus on getting people back into work, and we are seeing great results—more people moved off the benefit and into work in 2021 than any time since the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) began taking electronic records in 1996.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Why are almost 6 percent of working-age adults on the jobseeker benefit, almost twice the official unemployment rate, when local businesses like supermarkets are crying out for workers?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: One of the areas that we had to contend with when we came into Government was the area of upskilling and training for New Zealanders who were struggling to find employment. On the front line, there’d been a reduction of MSD work-focused case management, given that the front line was dealing more and more with hardship and hadn’t been given the resourcing that they needed to be able to support people—not only into the immediate employment that was available but the upskilling and training that they might need to get into employment. Since we’ve got into Government, we have focused on that investment, making sure that those on benefit do have access to upskilling and training and employment, and it’s paying off. We’re seeing—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! The member’s answer is too long.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Why are 6 percent of working-age adults on jobseeker when Stuff reports today that some kiwifruit companies are offering pay of up to $60 an hour?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Firstly, can I say that that would not be the norm for the kiwifruit picking or horticulture industry. I think that that would be the exception. With regards to some of those employment areas, it’s not easy with regards to the geographical location for some of the people that are unemployed to be able to get there. Even within the horticulture industry, they do need a level of skill that they don’t always have and we do hear that from the horticulture sector. We’re working with that sector to provide them and support them to get the employees that they need, and we’re very hopeful that we will be able to do that over the course of the season.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Can she explain how, at a time the Government is celebrating low unemployment and jobs are offering at $60 an hour, 36,000 more children are growing up in benefit-dependent homes?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I think we need to reflect on what was forecast initially a couple of years back: we have not reached the peak of beneficiary numbers that had been anticipated, and that’s due to the economic focus and health focus that we have had as a Government. Just last week, we saw benefit numbers come down under 350,000; there are over—I think—25,000 less on benefits than there were this time last year. With the investment that we are making, we are tracking in the right direction and we are supporting New Zealanders into employment more than ever, more than any other Government has done since electronic records were kept.

💬 Hon Chris Hipkins: Does the Minister believe that characterising people on benefits as “pretty damned hopeless”, or more recently as “bottom feeders”, does anything to get them into meaningful employment?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Absolutely not. And that has been one of the shameful parts of our political history—that we have used beneficiaries as political footballs during political cycles. It does nothing to empower or support those whānau to get ahead. We won’t be doing that as a Government; we will continue to invest in them in the way that we have been. We see the potential of people on benefit and know that investing in them is investing in their children.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: If she sees the potential of people on benefit, why is it that there are 116,000 on jobseeker that have been stuck there for over a year—an increase of almost 50,000 long-term unemployed under her watch?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I think it’s important to reflect on some of our policies and how, in that context, they are actually helping people get ahead. One of those policies is actually lifting the abatement threshold so that people can earn a little bit more money—they may keep their benefit, but they get to work a few more part-time hours without losing money. That’s really important, because we see part-time employment as a pathway to full-time employment. Also, if there are women that are on benefit but they are getting tertiary-level education because we actually reintroduced the Training Incentive Allowance, then I’m not ashamed of that, and that will help them and their children get ahead.

💬 Mark Cameron: Does the Minister stand by her statement “even the horticultural industry requires some skill”?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Absolutely. And they say it themselves, that they need a level of skill amongst the employees that they support. And so we continue to work with them, and there are a number of supports and products in place where MSD can provide support for that occurring. That has resulted into people going into those jobs. But I do recognise the strain that they’re feeling, not necessarily just because of the domestic labour force but because of the lack of people that are here on visitor’s visas, and a range of other things. But we do see the light on the horizon, and we’ll continue to work with them.

Questions to Members

Question No. 1—Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee

1. MELISSA LEE (National) to the Chairperson of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee: When will the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee report its findings on the Inquiry into the Review of the Radio New Zealand Charter to the House?

The reporting of said findings is a matter for the committee.

💬 Melissa Lee: Has the chair received any directives to postpone or delay the inquiry into the review of the Radio New Zealand charter’s final report to the House?

💬 SPEAKER: Order! That’s not a matter for which the chair is responsible.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The question asks specifically about whether the chair had received—

💬 SPEAKER: Yes, and the only things that the chair can report on to this House are matters of the decisions of the committee; nothing else. The member knows that—I think the member knows that—and if he doesn’t, he should have and, if he did, he’s being disorderly.