Russia Sanctions Bill

I rise to make a brief contribution on the third reading of the Russia Sanctions Bill.

I move, That the Russia Sanctions Bill be now read a third time.

In my brief contribution, I want to acknowledge all the members who have contributed to this debate, and in a way that has acknowledged the urgency with which we are putting through legislation which, for the moment and given the context, is a necessary objective, because we are at the very sharp end of observing a war that is unjustified and unprovoked and we are seeking to not only express our discontent with that approach but actually show our support and our solidarity with the international community around introducing a targeted sanctions regime.

Can I acknowledge from the outset Andrew Williams from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, who was responsible for drafting this bill and worked very hard on it, supported by Nathan Hollis and others. Sadly, Andrew and his family have COVID and he was unable to join me at this particular point of the debate, but for his work, and the work of the Parliamentary Counsel Office, I’d like that to be acknowledged. He was working through the wee hours to ensure that we had something that was fit for purpose.

The next point I’d like to make is, really, to the good-thinking Kiwis of New Zealand. Whether or not they understand the fullness of the legislative process, the intent has to be conveyed. The intent is that we target those who support Putin’s regime and the military action that’s being undertaken. We will use the sanctions process to be able to target those persons and entities, and their assets and services, who may be involved in that type of activity. But this is not intended to attack or target every person of Russian ancestry. I want to really highlight that. That will be really important for all members of this House as we connect not only to members of the Ukraine community but also to members of the Russian community who are just as distressed about what they’re observing over in that part of the world.

The other aspect that I’d like to highlight is that the reason we undertook to ensure that the legislative framework established sanctions by way of regulation was to remain agile. Yes, it’s a broad legislative framework to impose regulations, but necessarily so. It will enable the regulatory process to have thresholds met, which is set out in the legislation.

A lot of discussion has been raised about our broader stance—our broader stance in terms of multilateralism. I too believe that there is an important role for multilateralism, and we need to strengthen the institutions of the United Nations. The UN Charter must be fit for purpose for this time, as well as the discussion around the role of the United Nations Security Council and the right of veto. We hold fast to long-held views here—certainly on this side of the House—that the veto that can be exercised can be counterproductive, and in this instance that has been shown to be true.

So we advocate for the reform of those institutions in a way that strengthens, ultimately, our ability to say as a small nation in the Pacific that we uphold international law, we support multilateralism, we support the institutions that advocate for peace and human rights, and we will do our bit. And do our bit we have.

And if there’s any sense in this House that we haven’t done enough or we haven’t done it fast enough, I invite you to really go into some of the commentary of the approaches of other countries. Singapore, for example, have taken recent steps to take a position on this issue in this instance because they see it as quite significant; whereas, previously, they didn’t have the tools available to them. Switzerland has exercised a position when they have formerly held a position of neutrality. So the war that is being undertaken in Ukraine by Russia, because it is unprovoked and unjust, has forced a number of countries to revisit their former positions and respond in a very different way. So I wouldn’t beat ourselves up too much. Yes, we can always do better, yes, we can always do more, but in comparison to what’s happening around the world, we are doing our bit.

And let me just come to humanitarian aid, because this is my biggest worry. Having met with the International Red Cross and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to get a very clear-eyed view of their assessment of the situation, one of the comments that they made in relation to the way in which New Zealand provides humanitarian aid is that we always provide humanitarian aid with the view that we rely on those organisations and their footprint to undertake the role that we know that they can undertake for the humanitarian response, unlike other countries. Other countries often tag their humanitarian aid to certain aspects of what those organisations provide. So they use New Zealand in many regards as an exemplar of a country who does its bit in a way that supports these credible institutions to rally an international humanitarian effort in response to a range of things around the world, and I don’t think we should take that lightly or, I guess, underestimate how those organisations see our contribution.

Lastly, I am critically mindful that this bill would not pass without the full support of the House, and it is a different kind of a bill. And while we’ve all had our differing views on aspects of who did what when and all of that and what could have been done better, I do respect the fact that on the big issues we’ve seen fit to come together and show our solidarity in this regard, and I thank you all.

The question is that the motion be agreed to.

Just picking up, really, from where the Minister left off, we are of course supporting this. For the bill to have got through this stage fairly rapidly indicates the will of the House, I think. In his speech earlier, the Hon James Shaw mentioned that we often, when bills are put through quickly, find after a period of time that something is not quite right with them and we need to come back. And, while I think you can put all the belts and braces you like in a bill, that inevitably can happen—I hope it doesn’t here; I hope it’s as straightforward as it appears to be to all of us.

In recent news bulletins, there’s been some talk of people from both Russia and the Ukraine in New Zealand suffering the sorts of taunts and abuse from people because of what’s happening in Russia. I hope that stops, because those people have chosen to make their life here in this country. They’ve chosen to move away from the very regime that is currently causing the problem, and, in the case of Ukrainian citizens, they’re victims and most certainly should not come under that degree of pressure. I say this also because I have two great-nephews who are half Russian. Having known the family involved, I know this is certainly not their thinking, or anything like it. So I do hope that New Zealanders see sense and recognise that by this bill, where we are taking, essentially, what will be economic moves, sanctions, against Russia, we are making a contribution to the ending of this hostility.

I hope that the regulations that come are going to be strong enough. I hope that there’s, perhaps, some discussion about them before they are promulgated, so that we can all know exactly what the thinking has been behind getting those regulations together. I don’t want to prolong the point tonight. It’s, I think, important that it is passed before the House rises. Can I just say that we are delighted that this bill is making this progress. We have said that we think there is more that can be done in the future, and I appreciate that the Minister has indicated that she wishes to advance some work programmes around those concepts. We, of course, will be willing to work with her as appropriate for the development of those future bills. I look forward to the conclusion of this debate and the enactment of this Russia Sanctions Bill.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Much has been said about the bill, and I’m not going to take the time of the House by repeating what has already been said except to say that this is the clearest breach that we’ve seen of the rules-based order in a long, long time by a superpower who, having breached the international rule of law by invading their neighbour, then used their powers at the Security Council to block any sanctions through the United Nations. It’s a terrible set of events and justifies the bill that’s before us in respect of economic sanctions.

Before I finish, I would just recount my view that I think there is a good chance that sanctions will have a substantial effect on Russia and therefore on the future of Russia and indeed on their ability to afford to embark upon wars such as this. I recall the fall of the Soviet Union was preceded by their sharp economic decline. The Russian economy has been mismanaged for many decades. They have suffered autocracy after autocracy, a tsarist State followed by a inhumane Bolshevik State followed by a kleptocracy which has stripped out money from the people into the pockets of the elites in Russia in a way that I think we in New Zealand find deplorable after all of those years.

Despite the massive size of the Russian country, which spans from bordering Alaska in the east all the way across to Europe in the west—it is one of the largest countries in the world—its GDP is one and a half trillion US dollars per annum, a mere fraction of the German GDP of four trillion dollars, or just under, only the fifth largest economy in Europe. And in contrast, the US GDP is 21 trillion US dollars—all those are with US dollars figures. The GDP per capita in Russia is 57th in the world, notwithstanding their huge resource base and their enormous land area and the cleverness of their people. So the economy is mismanaged.

These sanctions will make it even harder for them to make their way in the world. And I hope that they will exact a price for the injustice that Russia is inflicting upon the Ukraine and for the knock-on effects on the undermining of the international rule of law and the world order. I again commend this bill to the House.

If it’s picking up a little bit of what others have said, I mean, as the rubble flies the rouble falls. We are living in very dangerous times and where things go is going to be very hard to see. But New Zealand, I think, through the Minister and her officials, can be proud of the work that’s been done tonight and New Zealand aligning itself with an important piece of human rights legislation. So, through the Speaker, to the Minister and her officials, thank you for the work you’re doing, but I also acknowledge Gerry Brownlee and the work that he’d done prior as well, and many others who have been involved.

I’m very pleased to hear the Minister in the committee of the whole House speak that she will explore wider autonomous sanctions and Magnitsky laws. She knows me well enough—I won’t stop asking, along with others, but I think that’s incredibly heartening. In the interests of time, I’ll bookend this speech by referencing what I did at the very start of my first speech in the House, which is to acknowledge the Ukrainian people but also the Russian people; both suffer under tyrants and autocrats, and our thoughts remain with them in this terrible and tragic time.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I too will keep my contribution short, but I want to just really add a postscript to this debate about the disarmament implications of Vladimir Putin’s invasion of the Ukraine, and what it means for the work that New Zealand so wholeheartedly has contributed to internationally, over a number of decades now, arguing for peace and disarmament, and strengthening the place of international law. Russia’s got almost 6,000 nuclear warheads and Vladimir Putin, when he made his threat to use nuclear weapons by putting them on high alert, sent a shock wave around the world. Without doubt, his words were designed to create uncertainty and instability. Belarus has, in recent days, renounced its non-nuclear status through a highly questionable referendum. This has added fuel to the fire.

Not only that, we’ve seen Russian forces using cluster munitions. These weapons open in mid-air, firing and dispersing dozens or even hundreds of smaller sub-munitions and bombs. They’re inherently an indiscriminate weapon, and they’re banned by 110 countries, including New Zealand. The Russians are using rockets, and mortar, and other explosive weapons in highly populated urban areas. We know that 90 percent of the casualties in this kind of warfare are civilians.

So on so many different fronts, the invasion of Ukraine, and the way that the Russians are prosecuting this war, they are driving a bus through international humanitarian law and so many of the things that we in New Zealand have worked for and treasure in the international community. These rules and institutions, they matter. We rely on them not only when conflict occurs but also to reduce tensions and stop war in the first place, and that’s why it’s so important that the country comes together and this House comes together to pass this sanctions bill that will tell President Putin, alongside the great majority of countries of the international community, that his actions will have real and severe consequences.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do hope that we can pass this bill into law tonight, and so I will not speak for long. I do want to start by thanking the Hon Nanaia Mahuta for her openness to the points that we’ve raised tonight, and, in fact, others right across the House in terms of both this bill and any possible future, wider autonomous sanctions regime.

Vladimir Putin’s regime is a chauvinistic, nationalistic kleptocracy, unsatisfied with looting its own country and its own people, which now wants to turn back the clock to the days of the former Russian empire. I have spent a bit of time in Moscow, and in my experience the Russians are a wonderful people. They’re warm. They’re smart. They’re philosophical. They’ve made a huge contribution to human civilisation, and my heart goes out to them that they have been so poorly served by their own political masters for nearly their entire history.

But my heart goes out even more to the Ukrainian people who are suffering so much at the hands of Putin’s murderous, paranoid regime. We can only hope that this war ends soon and that the aspirations of the Ukrainian people to live in a safe and secure modern democracy that is a part of the community of European nations—that is all they wanted, and that is what Putin is punishing and murdering them for as we speak.

For all of the diversity and the political difference represented here, tonight this House is speaking with one voice. We stand with the whole world in saying that Putin’s war must end.

I call the Hon—I’ve promoted you. I call David Seymour.

All members are honourable, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT in support of this third reading. As others have said, I think it’s important we get this done before Parliament’s rules require the House to lift at 10, so I’ll be very brief. Brooke van Velden, our foreign affairs spokesperson and deputy in ACT, has, I think, done a very good job in two excellent speeches in laying out ACT’s position. If I could pick up on a few of those themes.

First of all, it’s crystal clear that there is a case of right and wrong here. There is a liberal democracy, a self-determining country that was harming nobody that chose to consider coming closer to other countries that share those values, as we share them, and has been illegally, barbarically, and thuggishly attacked. There’s no question where we stand, and I’m proud as a New Zealander that there’s no question in this House of where our values stand in such a conflict.

I reiterate what a few people have said, that I have many Russian-born Kiwi friends. I’ve known a lot of Russians throughout my life. Some of them have reported to me, even in just the last couple of weeks, that they face discrimination. And another thing that’s clear, as James Shaw said very well, is they are wonderful people. It’s not their fault that the politicians that they have are even worse than the ones that you find in other countries. It is not their war; it is Vladimir Putin’s war. And it’s a wonderful thing that the world is putting the walls up and shutting them down and shutting them out. In fact, tonight, Vladimir can’t even get a Big Mac. And that is a very important signal that has been sent not just by Governments but by citizens and companies around the world: that there is clearly right and wrong and we don’t tolerate their behaviour.

There was a time where I think it was fair to say that New Zealand appeared to be the weakest link in the West. You saw it in The Wall Street Journal and published around the world that perhaps our country could be the place where those trying to assist Vladimir Putin could filter their ill-gotten gains for that purpose. Well, tonight Parliament unites to ensure that we will have the legislative tools to prevent that from happening.

Finally, we now find ourselves, as a country, involved in a clash of civilisations and a clash of ideals, and it shouldn’t be lost on us that as the country that most depends on the ideals of a rules-based order of collective security it is critical, as Brooke van Velden said, that we play our part and really re-evaluate what this change in the world order means for us, that we ensure that we are prepared militarily for no longer living in what Helen Clark called a “benign strategic environment”, and that we are prepared strategically and logistically for a world where the supply chains—that used to cross borders so long as there was a willing buyer and a willing seller—may be divided by geopolitical considerations in a way we haven’t had to think about since the Cold War. And when you think about things like fertiliser, for an agricultural economy like New Zealand, that stuff becomes practical. So I urge our Government to think very hard about New Zealand’s overall strategy in the changing world that this wanton, barbaric violence has heralded over in Europe.

And, finally, as others have said, to the Ukrainian people, those who live amongst us in New Zealand and also those who are there defending their country—people who only two weeks ago were working out what to buy at the supermarket have had to pick up a rifle, flee their country and attack incoming tanks, people trying to take away their statehood, their sovereignty, and their lives. Our heart goes out to you. Our support is with you, and I hope that our Government will soon be showing that it is more than just words that we back you with. We should be backing you with weaponry, with sanctions, and with every ounce of willpower and resource that New Zealand can dispose for the purpose. We, finally, once again, support this Russia Sanctions Bill. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Kia ora, Mr Speaker, and I want to say thank you this evening to this Government. Thank you to this House for supporting this piece of important legislation. This piece of legislation, although it’s many words on paper that we see and read every day, it’s about lives. It’s about human lives; it’s about lived experiences.

In July 2002, 20 years ago this July, I had the privilege of being in Ukraine, spending a couple of weeks there, a small amount of time in Kyiv and then down in Donetsk, which, since 2014, has actually been at war with Russia. My time down there was significant, and in many ways my path into this House tonight was paved through my experiences with the Ukrainian people. There was poverty, there was real struggle, in the parts that I was in. It was hard to see, as someone who’s spent their whole life living in New Zealand, the type of food, the type of clothing—or should I say the lack of food, the lack of clothing, and lack of access to different amenities. So to now see them at war, it’s heartbreaking. To now look on the television and in the newspapers and see the images of places that I’ve been, that I’ve seen with my own eyes, it’s heartbreaking.

So, therefore, I support this piece of legislation, not for me or for us but for Eugenie, for Vera, for Boris, for Mikhail, for Alexander, and for all the other people that I met in my time in the Ukraine.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. It’s a pleasure to take a very brief call at this very important juncture in world history. While many are out there updating their Facebook status and changing their profile picture to reflect some kind of solidarity with the people of Ukraine, changing a law will actually change lives. This is the kind of action that will actually have tangible results.

While New Zealand is a very small global player, we are a country with an international reputation of being a fair-minded people. So, while late, we will now be able to lend our voice of condemnation to our international partners by taking action to implement sanctions against President Putin’s regime. So with the passage of this bill tonight, Russians who have benefited from that regime will no longer find safe haven in our harbours, in our businesses, or in our financial institutions.

The National Party is pleased to support a bill that is largely reflective of the work of Gerry Brownlee, and we trust that, in its passing, we send a clear message to the world that we stand with Ukraine and we condemn in the strongest terms possible the actions of Vladimir Putin and his Government.

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I must take a very brief call on this pretty important debate. I follow the words of those who have been involved in the development of this bill, be they Opposition or Government members; members who have experience in this field, be they foreign affairs Ministers or former foreign affairs Ministers or members of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee.

But you don’t need to be an expert to know why this bill is important, and you don’t need to be an expert to know that what is happening in Ukraine is fundamentally wrong, however you look at it. I think that this House has sent a very clear message tonight that, on the whole, politics has been put to the side, and we’re standing together as one to send a very clear message. The debate around a broader discussion on autonomous sanctions will come. We’ve put our various views on that to one side, and have concentrated on a very clear message that New Zealand will not stand aside without putting a stake in the ground and saying that we believe what Russia is doing in Ukraine is wrong.

And very quickly, I just want to say that I’ve thought about my grandfather a lot over the last few days—a prisoner of war in World War II for four years. Despite everything that he told me in the horrors of war, and despite everything that we’ve seen on the television screens, nothing could prepare us for the horror that is being experienced in Ukraine at the moment.

For the likes of Christine and Vladimir and the other constituents in the Wairarapa electorate from Ukraine with family there that are having sleepless nights worrying about those they love, I just want to say that I’m sure I speak on behalf of everyone in this House that we send you our best wishes and sincere hope that your loved ones will be returned safe, and that, where possible, they will be able to join you here in the peace and safety of New Zealand. I commend this bill to the House.

A few weeks ago, I didn’t know what the Ukraine flag looked like, and I imagine there are many members of this House who probably didn’t as well, but we sure do now. I won’t repeat the comments about the harm that Vladimir Putin has caused, except just to talk about the intergenerational trauma that this will cause, because it’s not just about the civilian casualties and deaths; it’s about families being separated, it’s about refugees going to foreign-speaking countries, it’s about people being torn away from loved ones and just being totally traumatised. So what we are doing tonight is small but important. We are joining our friends—and there are many of them—in condemning what Vladimir Putin has done, because he has changed the world order. And I challenge us to call this Vladimir Putin’s war, and to not call it the war from Russia, so that we can look after those Russians here at home who are standing in solidarity with the Ukrainian community.

As we have come together tonight with a common purpose, and as we go forward in the future to consider a broader autonomous sanctions scheme, I think we can all reflect on the real and complex issues that face us around the sanctity of self-determination, our tolerance for human rights abuses both abroad and here, and our approach to supply chains, to modern slavery, to investment, and to values-based trade. How do we deal with foreign interference in our social media space? How do we show leadership once again in the disarmament space?

So I thank the Minister for the urgency and the way that she’s conducted the safe passage of this bill through the House. I thank the other parties for their support. And all our thoughts tonight, I’m sure, remain with the people of Ukraine, both here but especially in their homeland.

Mr Speaker, thank you. Today we stand with the people of the Ukraine, who are fighting for their lives, for their freedom, for their country, and for their future. We join other like-minded countries in condemning this illegal Russian invasion through sanction. Today, this Parliament sends a clear message to Vladimir Putin: you are a tyrant. Withdraw your troops from the Ukraine. It is time for you to leave the world stage.

I commend this bill to the House.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. In my brief contribution, I want to reiterate, first, my genuine thanks to Mr Brownlee for his work last year from which this bill leads; to Minister Mahuta, both for bringing the bill to the House and for garnering cross-party support for this bill. And, then, I really want to end where I started, which was thinking about the conversations that I had with Ukrainian Aucklanders last Friday. I’ll be speaking to some of them at the end of this week, as well. One of them spoke of his six-year-old in a bunker in Kyiv. Another one had his mother join us on the Zoom call from Crimea. She spoke of planes overhead, of tension, of uncertainty.

This is one step towards addressing the horrors of what is more than a breach of international law, but a breach of our ethics and our social contract. Kia kaha to those suffering as a result of Russia’s and Belarus’s actions. We stand with you. Just as there is House-wide support for the bill tonight, there has been a collective sentiment of outrage at the acts of Russia and Belarus, a collective sense of solidarity for those suffering at the hands of Putin’s Government, a deep sense of care for our Ukrainian community here in Aotearoa, and, I think, a hopeful sense that we have more to discuss in the space of human rights and a broader sanctions regime, as well.

With that, I think there is a lot to be hopeful for in the coming months, as we discuss the next steps forward. I commend this bill to the House.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read a third time.

Before I adjourn the House, I just want to say what a privilege it was to sit and listen to the House tonight. It was amazing—thank you.

Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It’s a serious thing. A number of people tonight have mentioned Magnitsky legislation. There is a wonderful podcast out there with Bill Browder, who is—

ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie): I don’t think that’s a constructive point of order.

—seriously—the man who’s pushed this legislation throughout the world. If people do want to know more about Magnitsky legislation, then I suggest they listen to the podcast on The Backroom of Politics. They’ll find it very instructive.

The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow.

The House adjourned at 9.57 p.m.