Special Debates — Oranga Tamariki

Thank you, Madam Chair. I rise for the third time tonight as the chair of the Social Services and Community Committee to discuss the Estimates of Vote Oranga Tamariki. The Minister for Children is responsible for nearly all the appropriations in this vote, which is administered by Oranga Tamariki. We discussed the vote with the Hon Kelvin Davis, as the Minister for Children. Vote Oranga Tamariki is approximately $1.468 billion in the 2021-22 year, an increase of $94 million, or 6.9 percent, from the previous year’s actual expense. The majority of funding within this vote is allocated to the multi-category appropriation “Investing in Children and Young People”.

The progress towards transformation of care and protection under Oranga Tamariki has been often raised by the public. And accordingly, we learnt that in 2021-2022, $23 million was allocated to improving the wellbeing of tamariki and whānau with the greatest need. The Minister told us this funding will enable the ministry to devolve power to Māori and to regions in New Zealand and that this funding will support the ministry’s response to the report of the ministerial advisory board, which will be discussed later.

We discussed the devolution of power to iwi and Māori organisations in the context of the new Section 7AA in the Oranga Tamariki Act, requiring improved outcomes for Māori. Budget 2021 provides $21 million for by Māori for Māori services. The Minister told us that bespoke solutions are required as the needs of communities differ.

The Estimates hearing covered such topics as the significant organisational change, with the resignation of the chief executive and the announcement of the ministerial advisory board. The board was due to report back to the Minister in August 2021 in regards to Oranga Tamariki.

The committee also asked about the approach to addressing violence. We were advised that $8 million is allocated to the new policy initiative called “Preventing Family Violence and Sexual Violence: Working With Communities and Whānau to Support Parents and Reduce Risk”. We also asked about the ministry’s complaints process, hearing the numbers sat at under 200 per year. We discussed the independent child’s monitor. We learned that the monitor will become its own departmental agency.

We heard about the changes to care and protection facilities and asked whether institutions are appropriate places for children who have experienced significant trauma. The Minister told us that the ministry is moving towards smaller, more home-like facilities with $71 million over the next four years to see these built. Oranga Tamariki is partnering with iwi to build these.

As the chair, I sincerely thank the Minister, officials, and clerks, and the select committee members for a thorough and robust set of hearings. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and I’d like to thank the member who’s just resumed her seat, Angie Warren-Clark, for the great job she’s doing chairing the Social Services and Community Committee.

Look, as we all know, Oranga Tamariki and its predecessors, over probably the last 30 or 40 years, haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory when it comes to caring for our most vulnerable children. The reason being, or one of the reasons, is that Oranga Tamariki and its predecessors put themselves at the centre of the system and everything revolved around them. That’s changing, and, as I’ve said to Oranga Tamariki, our children and their wellbeing need to be at the centre and at the heart of everything we do.

So the ministerial advisory board did produce a report, Te Kahu Aroha, looking at changes that need to be implemented. It complemented a number of other reviews that Oranga Tamariki has undergone over the last few years. And to cut a very long story short, the results are that decision making and resources are going to be devolved to communities and to Māori, because I believe firmly that communities and Māori know what’s best, what the solutions are for their own children. Secondly, we’re going to also improve the social work practice to make sure that the practice that those children experience from Oranga Tamariki staff is up to scratch, and also that we all do our part in the prevention of harm coming to children in the very first place. I’d rather be the ambulance at the fence, at the top of the cliff, rather than the ambulance at the bottom. So that, in a nutshell, is the future focus and where our budget commitments will lie, to improve the outcomes for our most vulnerable children.

One of the things that the future direction—and we have a plan, a three to five-year plan for the future direction of Oranga Tamariki. What that plan is not and what the future direction is not, because I’ve heard calls from certain sectors of the community and of society, is it is not about new bureaucracies and new structures. It’s not about jobs or pay or people trying to secure authority. It’s not about organisations jockeying for positions. The future of Oranga Tamariki and the future direction to ensure the wellbeing of our children is in the hands of our communities and Māori.

So I’ll leave it there. There is a bit of a time constraint, I’m told, so I’ll listen to the speakers and their questions, and I’ll try to answer a group at a time.

Kia ora, Madam Chair. I acknowledge the Minister in the committee this evening, and also the acting chief executive of Oranga Tamariki.

Before I address the committee further, I’d like to pay respect and acknowledgments to Neville Baker, a kaumātua of Te Atiawa and Taranaki, who died just a few days ago. I make mention of Neville. His tangi was today, out at Waiwhetū Marae, and Neville was quite a significant participant in the report Pūao-te-ata-tū, which is well-known over the last three decades. I have a copy of it here. At the time Neville Baker was the head of community affairs in the Department of Māori Affairs, and I was a young woman working in the Department of Māori Affairs at the time that this report was penned.

This report is, fundamentally, the precursor to a number of reports and reviews that have been written as a result of Oranga Tamariki and Child, Youth and Family Services—the ministries’ taxing responsibilities that they have in terms of the child welfare State agency in Aotearoa New Zealand. I take heed of what the Minister has said when he addressed the committee by saying that Oranga Tamariki has not covered themselves in glory. I think it’s significant to acknowledge the onerous task that social workers have within this State welfare agency and that because of the nature of the framework and how it’s set up in the legislation, they have those challenges that are there.

So I’m going to come back to the debate on the Estimates, where the Minister has talked about his ministerial advisory group and the recommendations that have come out of the report Te Kahu Aroha. The Minister has made a commitment for devolving responsibility for child welfare, care, and protection to communities Māori, the Minister says. I say Māori and non-Māori, our communities—our people at flax-roots and grassroots. I was back home in Whanganui on the weekend, when I always connect with my people—our people on the ground—and I mention particularly Tim Metcalfe, who has been working in the family violence sector for decades in one of Whanganui community’s welfare agencies, Jigsaw. So I connected with Tim and I’ll be spending more time with him, but we have our Māori communities, as well, who I stay engaged with.

I know Child, Youth and Family Services, having worked as a lawyer within the institution. I know the legislation, and the proposals and the recommendations—some 79 of them—that come out of Te Kahu Aroha but also the recommendations that come out of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner, the Office of the Ombudsmen, Whānau Ora, and also the Waitangi Tribunal. It is repeating what is in that foundational document of Pūao-te-ata-tū. It was published in 1988 and it was written in 1986, and so I acknowledge Neville Baker for his contribution, not just in that field but throughout a lifetime of service to our communities.

Minister, my question to you is you talk about the commitment that you as the Minister in leading a change in the framework in the organisation of Oranga Tamariki. I turn to the commitment in the Estimates, and it’s acknowledged that there’s $1.47 billion, and 90 percent of that, which is $1.354 billion, is over four expense category outputs. Two of those category outputs: one is prevention and early support, with $404 million, and the other is statutory intervention and transition, with $917 million.

Minister, you say that there’s a commitment for the devolution of child welfare to our communities. How could that be given priority when the majority of that funding I’ve talked about—statutory intervention and transition, with $917 million—is twice that of prevention and early support? What I’m saying to you, Minister, is that the fiscal commitment does not match the rhetoric, and I would invite the Minister to reconsider the approach that’s given there, particularly in partnering with our communities.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I firstly want to acknowledge the Minister in the chair for the work that is progressing, and acknowledge him for starting off by talking about and contextualising the work in this long history where whānau have not been supported by our State, and children have been taken from whānau and put into harm. And we have hurt children and we have hurt families as a country, and that’s a brutal reality, and generations of that—and some of the stories that we’re hearing through the royal commission of the lifelong impacts of that. And when we hear some of the vilification of gang members from some of the members of the Opposition, disconnected to that history, many, many of those people, actually, were taken into gangs out of a sense of trying to bring family together to protect themselves after a history of abuse in care. We have to take some responsibility as a country for that reality and hold that in context.

So this is a critical time in our history, and this is not going to be easy. A Government agency with that history—and it’s not just Oranga Tamariki that has got it wrong, right? This has been our courts, this has been our schools, and this has been our health system. It is an entire system that has been failing our children. And we have to bring that together and turn it around to a prevention-focused system that recognises that relationship is the only thing that actually helps people change. That without a relationship, nothing changes. People resist and they bed down or they hide and terrible things can happen. And when you lose trust, you lose an opportunity for change. Our system has no acknowledgment and our systems are not trust or relationship centred.

So there’s a huge amount of work to be done, and part of that is between the relationship between the Crown—which most people outside of Wellington refer to as “Wellington”—and communities. And actually, that trust has been broken as well, and that needs to be restored. So I’m really interested to hear—and this is also, we’ve particularly been focusing on this and the impact on whānau Māori, because that history is very well known and documented and it’s a breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and the tenfold increase in bringing tamariki Māori into care compared to non-Māori is an absolute outrage on our society. There is also the lens in terms of disability around this that I don’t think we acknowledge enough, where the Ombudsman’s report that came out earlier this year—in the case files he reviewed, in every single family at least one of the parents had a disability, and that lens was not brought to the interventions by Oranga Tamariki. And we know, our services on the ground, that enabling good lives is about starting to get supports for people to be able to overcome the barriers from our disabling society, but we have a very long way to go. And that is all part of the work that we need to do urgently. So I’m really interested.

I also just want to talk about the devolution and the importance of that. And I’m interested to hear from the Minister, because prior to the current model, or maybe a couple before, we had this concept of differential response, which was of Oranga Tamariki only taking a certain proportion of cases, and then the community dealing with the ones that didn’t reach a threshold, even though there was never actually a real threshold. But the problem was that our communities were not resourced to be able to respond effectively, and there was no local accountability and the funding was racist and disablist. So how, in terms of devolution, is the Minister going to ensure that we properly resource and put in place appropriate monitoring to deliver for our children?

Whilst the Minister is turning his thoughts to providing answers to the questions that have been posed, I have an additional question. Where the Minister made the statement that, “The independent child’s monitor is not about new structures or bureaucracy.”, then why is it, Minister, that under questioning of the Social Services and Community Committee on 21 June, as is recorded in Hansard, an answer that you gave to Ms Logie’s question “The independent monitoring not being truly independent.”, the Minister’s answer is, “No, not at all. So the independent monitor will become a departmental agency.” So, Minister, could you please confirm what it is, whether it is, in fact, another departmental agency, which is a new structure in addition to the decommissioning of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner, or is it not about new structures in bureaucracies? There is an inconsistency in the statement that you’ve just made in the committee this evening to that which you gave in evidence before the select committee on 30 June this year.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to remind you—around the select committee on votes Oranga Tamariki, the conversations we had during that select committee. We were talking about how there’s been many, many reviews in quite a short time frame, and I asked you, you know: when are we going to see some action? I asked the Minister, Kelvin. And I was told the time for reviews and sitting around having chats is over. It’s time for action. And when asked, “Well, have you got a time frame?”, he was “When the Ministerial Advisory Board report comes out.” You weren’t able to say in two months, three months, six months, nine months, 12 months—this is where Oranga Tamariki is going to be. The report that you were talking about in select committee has been released; it’s dated July.

So, Minister, we are now four months later from when this report was ready. Where is Oranga Tamariki now, and where is it going to be? Have we got time frames put in place where we are going to set targets each month and reach them?

Again, I’m aware of time constraints, so I’ll try to give fairly brief answers. To Harete Hipango, her question asking whether I will reconsider my approach to partnering with communities. The answer is “no”. If the National Party doesn’t believe in partnering with communities, I think that they need to—

💬 Chris Bishop: That’s not what she asked.

That is exactly what she asked, and the answer is no. We will be partnering with communities and with Māori. I think the member who’s having a bit of a “waa, waa, waa” at me over there, he needs to actually read the Hansard, because that is exactly what she asked me.

I agree entirely with Jan Logie about the loss of trust and that Oranga Tamariki has, and other Government agencies have, a huge amount of work to do to regain the trust of people. I’ve been saying to Oranga Tamariki staff that we will start to regain the trust of people, of whānau, when they see our social workers, our staff, actually going out and fighting for them, advocating for them on their behalf, to get better services from other Government agencies, and when we start seeing the results too.

The devolution question: definitely the devolution of resources in decision making needs to go to communities, which is, again, why I question what Harete Hipango asked. That’s essential. It comes down to the engagement with communities and the relationships that will be formed with them. Again, Harete Hipango said something about the independent child monitor—that is a departmental agency; I have been advised that it is a departmental agency.

To the member Karen Chhour’s question: work has started. We have a three- to five-year plan. It has goals for zero to six months—it has goals out for the five years. So that is in place. Work has started on addressing those goals.

Well, it is reassuring to hear that the Minister in the chair, Kelvin Davis, has made a commitment to partnering with the communities, because I put it to the Minister again, in evidence that he gave to the select committee on 30 June, that there is a $400 million commitment provided across the country; $100 million—that is, 25 percent—goes to Māori providers right now. Minister, you have also put on the record that 68 percent of children in State care are Māori. You have also indicated in the strategic planning and accepted all recommendations from your ministerial advisory group about the importance of equitable investment. So, Minister, could you please answer: if 68 percent of the children in State care are Māori and only 25 percent of the budget allocated across the country goes to Māori providers right now, how is that equitable?

Further, Minister, I think the record needs to be clarified and clear: you gave in your speech or opening statement this evening that the Independent Children’s Monitor is not about new structures, not about bureaucracy. However, you have confirmed, on advice, Minister—which, as the Minister for Children, you ought to know, because you are the proponent for an Independent Children’s Monitor. You are the proponent for the bill that has been introduced to the House with the oversight of Oranga Tamariki and the establishment of a new Children and Young People’s Commission. The Minister for Children ought to know that in commending and recommending this new structure, it is another bureaucratic Government department.

The member is totally confused. I didn’t mention anything about the independent child monitor, but there are other political parties in this House who wanted this big bureaucracy separate from Oranga Tamariki. That is what I was talking about. She’s totally gone off on another tangent, on another planet somewhere. I was not at all referring to the independent child monitor. The member has this habit of standing up and, under the guise of asking a question, going down these garden paths and these trails and totally confusing everybody that’s listening, and basically invents and puts words into people’s mouths that were never said. It’s absolutely mind-boggling that she can basically invent a Hansard for me. So—

💬 Harete Hipango: Point of order, Madam Chair—point of order. For the Minister to suggest that I’m inventing or I’m fabricating is really bordering on an allegation or an assertion that I am not making a statement of fact, nor that I am telling the truth. I invite the Minister to reconsider, because Hansard will evidence what has been recorded in the Chamber this evening.

In reply to that, no, I’m not going to reconsider. This was what I said right at the outset: the future direction is not about new structures, bureaucracies, jobs, pay, authority, and people or organisations jockeying for position. Nowhere in that did I mention the independent child monitor.

Can the Minister lay out the goals he set for Oranga Tamariki’s performance? Are they just one at six months, one at five years, or are there other goals he didn’t mention? If there are other goals, what are they and when are they set for?

That’s easy. Look, there is a future direction strategy. It has a number of objectives covering from now until five years. I don’t have it on me. I haven’t memorised every single element of the plan. But I’m happy, you know, to discuss it. It’s no big secret. The fact is that we’re moving ahead in a direction that will give decision making, resources to communities working in partnership to make sure that we get the very, very best outcomes for our most vulnerable children.

I posed a question to the Minister this evening and the committee and members of the public who may be listening in are still awaiting a response. The question was along the lines of the commitment that the Minister has made to partnering with our communities, and the Minister has also made a commitment to accepting and endorsing all 25 recommendations of Te Kahu Aroha. Recommendation 19 is that of “adequate and equitable investments in Māori collectives and communities.” I’ve stated to the House this evening and put it to the Minister: does he accept that the allocation of 25 percent, $100 million of the $400 million that has been committed to community partnership, is an equitable fiscal allocation aligned and on par with the number of children, Māori children, in State care?

Also, before I conclude, I think it’s important and it would be appropriate and becoming of a Minister for a department for children to be the exemplar in how women are treated. I know that, as a lawyer who was advocating for Māori mothers and for non-Māori mothers of children, it was evidenced time and again how they were spoken over by people working within the agency—unbecoming, inappropriate. And I would invite the Minister to reconsider how he conducts himself in that position of responsibility as the lead for the Ministry for Children.

Just very quickly—in terms of the partnership, I don’t know how much further I can explain: the whole future direction of Oranga Tamariki is working in partnership with communities and Māori. I don’t know how much more explanation or how much more I can emphasise, and yet she keeps asking these questions about “will I commit to partnership?” That’s the whole point of what we’re doing. That’s the whole change: empowering communities and Māori.

The time for this particular debate—

💬 Hon Member: Four minutes on the clock.

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa): I call on Harete Hipango.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think it’s abundantly clear that the Minister and his ministry—which I commend for the efforts and the work that is done by the workers within the ministry—have made a commitment for the transformation. Again, I put the question to the Minister, which has been evaded at least three times now: in terms of fiscal commitment, does the Minister consider that the fiscal commitment in the Estimates is on an equitable basis to meet the needs of Māori children in State care?

I move, That the committee report progress.

Motion agreed to.

House resumed.

Mr Speaker, the committee has considered a special debate on current issues and priorities, and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report adopted.