Estimates Debate — Māori Development

Madam Chair, thank you very much, after waiting for your call for quite some time with anxious anticipation. First of all, can I thank the Ministers for presenting in front of the Māori Affairs Committee, both Ministers Henare and Jackson, on 30 June and 19 July respectively.

Vote Māori Development encompasses both the Ministry of Māori Development, otherwise known as Te Puni Kōkiri, and also Whānau Ora, which the Government has invested in across Governments for some time now and it’s making an absolute difference out there on the ground, in the grassroots level in our community. So the aim of Vote Māori Development is, of course, to improve whānau, hapū, and iwi conditions across all kinds of areas: economic, social, health, and also wellbeing.

It was indeed a pleasure to hear about the absolutely razor-sharp focus that the Ministry of Māori Development have got in the area of housing, and it is in this Budget, in this Estimates hearing, that we heard about the kind of investment that is being put into Vote Māori Development and, specifically, into housing. The total value of the Vote is $383 million, and the Vote includes an appropriation of $98 million specifically for Māori housing—an increase of $61 million, which is up 170 percent compared to the estimated actual of $36 million in 2020-21.

Now, that particular funding is aimed at improving the quality of homes for whānau most in need but also partnering with some of our iwi housing providers to create better outcomes and to accelerate housing projects across all parts of New Zealand. It’s been well received, can I also say, out there in the regions where there is a dire need for housing.

On top of that, Te Tumu Paeroa, through this appropriation, has been appropriated $5.1 million, and a total of $20 million over the four years to 2024-25. That’s going to support its capacity to be able to just naturally do its statutory jobs but also to help development on whenua Māori.

Outside of the Estimates process, we also heard from Te Tumu Paeroa, who talked about their project Te Tumu Kāinga, which is enabling Māori land owners to be able to develop into housing aspirations as well. So we support that appropriation.

Also under the banner of housing, Māori boarding schools got an appropriation through this as well—$9.3 million in each of the years 2021-22 and 2022-23—which is looking to improve the funding for infrastructure across four Māori boarding schools: Hukarere Girls’ College, St Joseph’s Māori Girls’ College, Te Aute College, and also Hato Pāora College. Māori boarding schools play a key and an instrumental part in the growing of young Māori talent, and they’ve been doing that for a long amount of time. Recently, we also heard—again, outside of the Estimates process—about the difference that boarding schools make, the ability to be able to house some of our young students, our tauira, and the difference that it makes for their educational achievement. So, again, we’re incredibly supportive of that appropriation.

Finally, just the difference that this appropriation is going to make to strengthening our te reo capability and our tikanga as well out there: $5.3 million in this financial year, and a total of $14.7 million over the four years out to 2024-25. That’s in order to be able to support the delivery of the Maihi Karauna, which is the Government’s Māori language strategy. We’re going to be able to do that through investing in organisations like Te Māngai Pāho—$10.5 million this year, and $42 million over the four years out to 2024-25—and also by supporting the sustainability of the Māori media sector.

The Minister came before the committee and talked about the good work that’s being done by a cluster of Māori media professionals that he’s managed to get together into the same area and talk about some of the challenges that are being faced out there in Māori broadcasting land—i.e., iwi radio as well. So this is going to make a significant difference to those organisations who are, again, out there at the coalface, doing what they can to be able to strengthen the Crown’s commitment to te reo me ōna tikanga, and I’m incredibly supportive of it.

We sat and we heard the Ministers—both Ministers—talk with passion about their various portfolios, and I’m incredibly supporting of the direction under Vote Māori Development.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would ask the Minister if the Government is developing a national declaration plan to implement the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples as a priority for this Government, and, if so, why was it not listed as a policy initiative in Budget 2021/22? I would also ask the Minister if any funding has been allocated for the development of a national declaration plan to implement the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, and, if not, why not?

I would note that Minister Jackson, in a speech at Ngā Whare Waatea, said, “He Puapua is a collection of ideas, suggestions, aspirations and hopes for Māori—something to add to our discussions … the Declaration can be a bit scary when you first look through its gates. But once we talk about it together, wananga, and even argue back and forth about it—it will become a place where talking about self-determination is welcomed, a place where we can share our aspirations and debate our future. It will be something that brings us together as a country.”

I note that a declaration working group was set up by Labour in 2019 and consisted of five non-State representatives and four Government officials. Government promised transparency, and all New Zealanders deserve an opportunity to understand and engage in the issues being proposed in the He Puapua report. One of the report’s writers, associate law professor Dr Claire Charters, told me that she wished the report was used as an instrument to have a genuine discussion about what realising our international obligations and what Te Tiriti o Waitangi requires. I would ask the Minister to clarify what his position is on the authors of the He Puapua report, commissioned by Te Puni Kōkiri, briefing the Māori Affairs Committee on their thinking and the recommendations contained within that report.

Kia ora, Madam Chair. Could the Minister, the Hon Willie Jackson, talk to us about the aspiration of indigenous peoples, talk to us about the aspiration of Māori, talk to us about the aspiration of tino rangatiratanga as outlined within this Estimates, and talk about how the foundation of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, signed by that corner of the House by the then Prime Minister John Key, will actually help to meet those different expectations and the dreams and aspirations of tangata whenua?

What advice did the Minister receive, and from whom, that the Māori procurement scheme is only for 5 percent rather than the 25 percent as proposed by Te Paati Māori? What progress has the Minister made on the procurement scheme, has it been implemented, and how many contracts have been signed off? Will the Minister double funding for Te Mātāwai so that our people can lead their own te reo Māori revitalisation strategies? Does the Minister’s plan for implementing the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples include supporting the push for constitutional transformation according to the Matike Mai report? Is it Labour’s policy to entrench the Māori electorates, or will they continue to force Rino Tirikatene to put this up as a member’s bill, which may never even get debated in this House?

I would ask the Minister what is the time line for public consultation on a national declaration plan to implement the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples? I would ask the Minister what is the time line for developing a national declaration plan for implementation on the rights of indigenous people, and releasing it for public consultation?

Thank you, Madam Chair. Could the Minister also talk to us in terms of the way that they’ve been rolling out the aspirations of tangata whenua in terms of the Māori Health Authority about whether there is scope in foundation within this year’s Estimates to build up those same aspirations in Māori Education? And could he also be specific and talk to us about how that aspiration would work for kōhanga reo, kura kaupapa, also for wharekura?

Thank you, Madam Chair. It’s an honour to present in this debate, despite some of the strange questions coming from the Opposition. But I’ll answer a couple of them because they seem to have an absolute obsession with He Puapua, which, I’ve made very clear, is over—gone. However, I will acknowledge the mahi of our people in terms of He Puapua, as I’m sure all the Māori members here will. Claire Charters and Bill Hamilton and others who contributed to that document are brilliant. I mihi to them. Mihi nui ki a rātou mō tā rātou mahi ātaahua ki te whakatū, ki te kōkiri i tērā kaupapa.

[Thanks to them; sincere thanks to them for their beautiful work in instigating and championing that report.]

I thought it was a very brave and courageous move from them to put such a document out and it was a catalyst for this kōrero. At the same time, I want to mihi to my Uncle Moana Jackson and my wife’s whanaunga Aroha Mead, who are two of the original people who talked about indigenous rights—it must be 30 years ago—and have been role models in terms of this kaupapa, in terms of the United Nations declaration that was brought up by them in the 1980s and 1990s, when my Uncle Moana was talking about a separate legal system and certainly upset mainstream New Zealand at the time. I mihi to them for their work in terms of strengthening and identifying indigenous rights, rights that were recognised by the National Party and John Key in 2010, who took up the challenge from former party leader of the Māori Party Pita Sharples—the co-leaders at the time who talked about New Zealand buying into the declaration—and well done to National and the Māori Party at the time for following through in terms of the declaration.

So let’s be very clear: that’s what we’re talking about today and we’ve reignited the whole debate through He Puapua, and, of course, now we’re on track in terms of the declaration. I made a speech at Ngā Whare Waatea Marae which talked about how we would now progress in terms of the declaration. It’s a two-step declaration—it’s a two-step process, I should say, in terms of addressing the declaration. The first step will be negotiation or consultation with Māori. Now, you do that because it’s an indigenous declaration. I know that shocks and horrifies some of the National Party members, but when it’s an indigenous declaration, that means Māori first and foremost. That does not mean Pākehā people miss out. That just means we honour the obligation in terms of Māori and we talk with our people in terms of what they want, their hopes, their dreams—where do they see New Zealand in terms of tino rangatiratanga, in terms of kaupapa Māori, in terms of co-governance and partnership, which the National Party introduced with Ngāi Tūhoe and Tāmati Kruger some years ago, and embraced the concept of co-governance and partnership. We’re going to traverse all those areas over the next few months.

So our Te Puni Kōkiri (TPK)—just for the member who asked the question—are currently working with the Iwi Leaders Forum. By the end of August, they’ll seek ministerial approval for a targeted engagement strategy. I will be looking at that. After an approved targeted engagement, we’re going to commence consultation with iwi Māori right through to the end of November. It’ll be across all organisations, Māori organisations—not just iwi organisations—and it’ll be a focused, whānau-driven approach. In December, there’ll be a report back to Cabinet to seek approval in terms of drafting a declaration plan.

A governance group will be chaired by Professor Margaret Mutu and comprised of Dayle Takitimu, Aroha Mead, Liana Poutu, and Bill Hamilton, and they’ll liaise with Ministers. A steering committee comprised of Geoff Short, Tricia Keelan, and Dr Claire Charters will provide oversight to the project, and a working group comprised of TPK staff, Health Research Council staff, and Pou Tikanga - appointed staff will undertake the groundwork. So that’s the sort of process going forward, and of course we will be consulting with the rest of New Zealand, as we must and as we should, over the next six months.

So I think that the hysteria that the National Party have been trying to stir up hasn’t worked at all in their favour. As you can see, people are not particularly concerned about this kaupapa because most New Zealanders understand that for this nation to go forward, we must have strong partnerships. We must work together. We must share in terms of resourcing, and the National Party and Māori Party laid some of that ground work and we’re certainly continuing with the work, not doing a lot of things different other than providing much more resourcing.

In terms of rangatiratanga, I’ve always said to my whanaunga over there, Rawiri from the Māori Party, that there’s no—

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Order! Order! The member will address the member by his full name.

Sorry—apologies, Madam Chair. Rawiri Waititi—there’s no rangatiratanga in Parliament; only on your marae.

💬 Rawiri Waititi: Don’t get nervous, Minister.

Only on your marae—there’s no rangatiratanga here. You come in and you bow to the Westminster system and that’s what it’s all about. It doesn’t matter how many hakas you do, this is not tino rangatiratanga territory. This is a Westminster set-up and the best thing you can do here is just get the deal, and the deal here for us is Māori resourcing and Māori funding. We got record Māori funding and resourcing, as the chair of the Māori Affairs Committee said, in the last Budget: $263 million of new money, $42 million put aside for Māori media, $20 million in terms of our whenua Māori. Through that type of funding and resourcing, we’re hoping that some of our groups might be able to achieve forms of tino rangatiratanga. But to think you can get tino rangatiratanga here, I think, is in la-la land.

In terms of procurement, progressive procurement spreads the benefits of the Government’s $51.5 billion spend per year on procurement of goods and services to the wider community—it’s now being spread—and we have Amotai who are involved with that. The member criticises the 5 percent, but the 5 percent was brought about by a former Minister Nanaia Mahuta, and I think she’s done a really good job in putting that percentage in.

💬 Rawiri Waititi: Oh, throw Nanaia under the bus!

We got a lot of—see, we can never win. The Opposition say it’s separatist and apartheid, having 5 percent in terms of procurement. The Māori Party call us sell-outs. So we can’t win—we can’t win—but we know we’re on the right track and our hope is, obviously, that we can increase that. But we’ve had a huge response in terms of our Māori and Māori businesses who are open to an opportunity they never had under the National Party.

In terms of where the question—

💬 Hon Members: What about the question?

Oh, I think I’ve answered a number of questions—I’ll keep going. In terms of Mātāwai, I think that question came up—Mātāwai—I’m dealing with the chairs at the moment. They’re finding their way, Mātāwai, at the moment in terms of how they work with Te Arawhiti. I think it’s important that we get the strategy right. If there is a problem, everyone’s related and everybody’s all been on the same boards. So we’re all going around in circles, and we have terms. Sometimes they’re with the Crown and sometimes they’re wearing the tino rangatiratanga hat—and we’ve got Wena Tait, who I’ve just appointed to Mātāwai. She’s been with Māori TV. Now she’s going to be my Crown appointment. You know, it’s only a small pool, and as I’ve always said—

💬 Christopher Luxon: Point of order, Madam Chair. It’s a very entertaining conversation, as the Minister’s always very entertaining. But I’m not sure about relevance to what he’s actually talking about in answering the questions, because we’ve conceded some time and we’ve said we’ll do this in 20 minutes, and we’re not making the most of it.

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): I thank the member. I thank the member for his point of order.

Well, I’m answering the question about Mātāwai, which was a question from the member, and all I’m saying is it’s very hard being Māori, operating on Māori initiatives, because people talk about conflicts of interest, and I always say, “Well, you can’t be a Māori if you don’t have a conflict of interest.” That’s just the reality. Because we’re whanaunga; we’re friends right across the spectrum. But I’ll take a break now, if someone else wants to ask questions.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister for that kōrero. I, unfortunately, think I ended up knowing less than I did at the beginning of it! There were a few statements in there that seemed to contradict one another, and I’d just ask if the Minister would clarify those for the benefit of those watching and members in the House. On one hand, he said that the He Puapua report is over and gone. On the other hand, he said it’s a catalyst for a kōrero with Māori. He’s also said in other statements outside of the House that he’s consulting with iwi and, in July, in fact, was going out for consultation on indigenous rights. I wonder if he would clarify as well whether he’s communicated to Dr Claire Charters that the He Puapua report is over and gone, because he’s also appointed her to the working group.

Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. In response to the concerns raised by members opposite about the shortening of time, I would therefore point out that the point of the Estimates debate is solely to discuss what is in the report, and He Puapua does not feature once.

Thank you for that point of order. I’ll just have a yarn about that.

💬 Nicola Willis: The Minister was happy to talk about it.

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Members will be silent. Thank you for that point of order. I’m looking at Speakers’ ruling 134/4, “The Estimates debate is confined to current spending plans as contained in the Estimates document.” Thank you.

Point of order. The question on Te Mātāwai was clear, around doubling the funding, and he didn’t answer that at all; he talked about conflicts of interest.

Thank you for that point of order. It is at the discretion of the Minister which questions he wishes to address.

In terms of the Mātāwai question, there’s no plans at the moment in terms of an increased Mātāwai budget, but a tono has been laid down by the member’s whanaunga, and it will go under consideration for the Budget. But we’ll see how it stacks up against everything else. Now, in terms of the member over there, I can’t help it if the member is stupid.

💬 Maureen Pugh: Point of order, Madam Chair. That was completely unparliamentary, and I think the Minister should stand, withdraw, and apologise.

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Thank you for that point of order. I am sorry; I was conferring with the Clerk, and so the member has taken offence—[Interruption] No, no, I’m asking a question of the member who took the point of order—has taken offence?

💬 Maureen Pugh: I did take offence.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Point of order.

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): No—thank you. [Interruption] The member will resume his seat. I’m in the middle of ruling. I’ll ask the member to stand, withdraw, and apologise.

I’m sorry, Madam Chair. I withdraw and apologise.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Point of order. I was watching very closely at the time that the Minister called a member stupid. He was looking at Kieran McAnulty.

💬 Kieran McAnulty: Point of order. I take no offence.

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Well, before I take the Minister’s call, can I just call it, in the time-honoured tradition, one all?

Kia ora, Madam Chair. Thank you. I’m sure we’ve all got thick skin here; so, to whoever is upset, I apologise. Can I rephrase it? I can’t help it if the member is silly in terms of this kaupapa. I hope he doesn’t take offence to that. Offended? OK. But in terms—no, I can’t help it, because I’m very clear that the He Puapua work is over. He Puapua is not Government policy. I don’t know how many times—I know that the Opposition want He Puapua to be Government policy, but it’s not and they did a terrific job. Dr Charters is a renowned international law expert and is well placed in terms of her mahi, and she’ll be helping later on with our work. But it was really important work that they did, and I’m just pleased with the mahi they’ve done.

I think that the Opposition should congratulate us because we’ve got record funding in terms of Māori Development. We’ve got $42 million in terms of Māori media—the National Party never gave one cent in 10 years. Now we have an opportunity for our iwi radio network, for Māori Television, for Māori news, to do more. We’ve got $15 million in terms of Māori tourism. We’ve got whenua Māori being looked after, and housing—as our Māori Affairs chair said, $383 million in terms of Māori housing. I mean, things are turning around in the housing area, unlike they were in the time that the National Party was in. We’re talking possibly a thousand houses over the next four years, specifically for Māori.

We’re talking about repairs in the small areas like Murupara and Kaingaroa. I’m really proud of some of the work that’s happening at the moment, and you can’t doubt some of the mahi. We’ve got $20 million being invested into Māori schools, Māori schools like St Stephen’s and Hukarere. I just think there’s so much to be proud of. So I would urge the Opposition to stop being so negative and respect—particularly Mr Bridges, who’s trying to sell a book next week, trying to get everyone to go to the launch. He’s even asked my whole family to go to the launch—it’s just disgraceful!

CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Order! Can I ask the Minister to stick to the subject of the Estimates? Is the Minister finished? I’ll take another call.

Madam Chair, probably my original question got lost in the cacophony over He Puapua, but I just wanted to follow up again around Māori education. There’s this movement towards a Māori Health Authority, there are a lot of needs within Māori education, acknowledging that there is stuff in the Budget that was announced for Māori education, but what is the future for kōhanga reo, kura kaupapa, and wharekura within that aspect?

Another question, which is not related to that one, is around Matike Mai. We hear about all the politics of distraction and all the confusion over there, and I would say that perhaps the solution is within the many, many numerous hui that were held to actually pull the Matike Mai report, and what the Minister’s next steps would be in terms of responding to that report—so two things. Thank you.

Look, I think that something the Minister said before is actually important to call up. He said “It’s all about the deal.” And, actually, he talked a lot about the cash that he actually was getting out to his announcements, but there is a big difference between announcements and deals, and actual outcomes. That’s actually what we’re interested in, is outcomes, on this side.

I just want to spend a little bit of time just talking about education because, you know, educational attainment leads to higher wages and salaries, which ultimately leads to more freedom and choices for people—Māori people, non-Māori people, everybody, all New Zealanders. I guess I really want to understand from the Minister: fundamentally, what work does he think needs to be done to lift Māori attendance at school? Because when we look at it, actually getting kids, all kids, New Zealanders, into school is actually really important. And Māori are at around about 48 percent regular attendance at schools versus 60 percent for the rest of the country.

So I’m interested in what strategies does he think needs to be done to lift attendance? Does he agree that we need to be setting some targets to improve the number of students attending? And, thirdly, we had a really good model of charter schools that were actually achieving fantastic outcomes for Māori and that’s been thrown out the door. Why wouldn’t we do that again?

Madam Chair—and I’ll be leaving in two minutes because I certainly respect our whips saying that our time is over. I just want to quickly say to our Green member Teanau Tuiono that kōhanga and kura kaupapa has been looked after by Minister Davis who has actually put in funding that National refused to fund for five years. Rawiri Waititi’s whanaunga Hekia Parata refused to fund them and went down a track of not funding them, and the Ministers working in collaboration with the kuia Iritana Tāwhiwhirangi and kōhanga reo. I agree in terms of the equity arguments in terms of kōhanga reo and kura kaupapa.

In terms of Māori health, there will be bids put up next year, and in terms of all those questions from Mr Luxon, he can see me later on if he wants to have a cup of coffee. Kia ora tātou katoa.

Police