Oral Questions

1. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government’s statements and actions?

Yes, particularly the Government’s decision to support more first-home buyers with the deposit on their first home, tip the balance in favour of first-home buyers through our demand measures, incentivise investment in newly built homes, and jump-start developments by funding the vital infrastructure like pipes and transport links needed for new housing. New Zealand’s housing crisis has been decades in the making, and there is no silver bullet and there is no quick fix. It’s an issue that will take time to turn around, but our package of both urgent and long-term changes will increase housing supply, relieve pressure on the market, and make it easier for first-home buyers.

💬 Hon Judith Collins: Can she confirm that under her Government, weekly median rent has increased $120, house prices have increased $250,000, and her KiwiBuild programme has only delivered 792 houses?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Based on the member’s question, I’m expecting full support for the package of initiatives that the Government has announced today, because, obviously, that package is in response to the fact that since February of last year, we have seen an over 20 percent increase in house prices in this country, and we cannot stand by and allow that to continue to happen, because it means that houses will be out of reach for our first-home buyers and it means that many families who are in housing literally feel trapped. These measures are about reducing the immediate heat that is in the market—the risk that we have a housing bubble that, if it bursts, will cause issues for our wider economy—and it creates longer-term supply, because that is what will make a difference for renters in the long term, and that is why we’re encouraging investors to invest in new builds by exempting them from brightline changes and deductibility.

💬 Hon Judith Collins: Does she believe that extending the brightline test this year will have a different result from the $250,000 increase in house prices that occurred since the last time she extended the brightline test?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I believe it will have the same impact as the National Party believed it would when they introduced it. It was intended, of course, to put greater clarity around the existing intention test that was already in place in New Zealand, and we’ve already had as part of our tax regime that if someone purchases a home other than their family home with the intention of selling it to make profit, that was intended to be taxable income. Putting a measure on that has been a way that the National Government tried to reduce ambiguity. We are doing the same. We’ve extended it on the advice of officials.

Brooke van Velden: Is she concerned that advice from the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development on the HomeStart grant in regional areas stated that “Increasing the existing home grants is more likely to inflate house prices”; if so, is she confident that the policy to increase the grants announced today will not further inflate house prices?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Yes. The reason that we have that element of the package is because we also have an element of a package around supply. So, of course, that advice is squarely based on the idea that if you do anything that potentially increases demand without having measures to increase supply, then potentially you cause extra heat in the market. At the same time, we’ve also got measures to dampen down demand particularly driven by speculators in the market, which, of course—the Reserve Bank and others have pointed to the considerable growth in the proportion of the market that is taken up by speculators at present. [Interruption]

💬 SPEAKER: Order! There are, as the member the Hon Mr Brownlee knows, numerous Speakers’ rulings about repetitive interjections. I think that he has given the same interjection on seven occasions, and I think that is now getting to the point of just about disorderly.

💬 Hon Judith Collins: Does she consider families who offer a second property for rent for a period of nine years to be speculators?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Certainly the issue we have at the moment is that those who are purchasing on the basis of trading in a market where they make a gain by flipping a house at a point when the market is high are causing extra demand in the housing market. What I would say to anyone who is choosing to purchase a property for the purposes of a long-term investment: make it long term. That provides extra stability for tenants. It means they aren’t being removed from their housing when there is heat in the market. And we also encourage those who may be wanting to invest in New Zealand to invest in a new build. It will be exempt from the brightline changes and from interest deductibility changes.

💬 Hon Judith Collins: Is she seriously telling New Zealanders that people who invest and provide rental housing for nine years are flipping the market?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The advice that we’ve been given was that an extension was in order, and we agreed with that advice. What I would also, again, say, as a general message to those considering investment property: there will be a place for that in New Zealand; there is. We ask you, though, at a time when we have significant supply issues: turn your mind to investing in a new build.

💬 Hon Judith Collins: How is extending the brightline test from two years to 10 years anything other than converting what was an income tax on speculators into a capital gains tax on rental properties?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Of course, the member is referring to the policy which her party introduced. Again, I would point to the fact that at that time, “A capital gains tax is something that you pay no matter when you buy and sell the property”—that was from John Key. “Some people characterise this as a capital gains tax. It is not …; it is actually an income tax, and everyone has an obligation to pay”—that was Andrew Bayly. Again, “This means … when somebody buys property with the intention of making a profit they must pay income tax on that gain”—that was Todd McClay. And Simon Bridges said that the brightline test is a “world away” from a capital gains tax.

💬 Hon Judith Collins: So which will deliver more houses: the $2 billion given to Kāinga Ora today for land acquisition or the $2 billion given to Kāinga Ora for KiwiBuild in 2018?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I can tell you that both initiatives will deliver more than what that last Government attempted to when, for instance, they put out a $1 billion infrastructure scheme for loans to council—knowing, of course, they had limited rating base; they had, of course, limits to how much debt they could take on, as councils—and it simply did not move the dial the way we needed. The $3.8 billion acceleration fund we have for investment in infrastructure will be a game-changer for many, and it’s why, for instance, we have the likes of Nelson City Council coming out and saying this will shift the dial.

💬 Hon Judith Collins: What is her understanding of the difference between an income tax on people who purchase property in order to resell it immediately and a capital gains tax on people who own a property and provide rental accommodation for others for up to 10 years?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The same as John Key’s, and the same as many members of that side of the House.

Question No. 2—Finance

2. to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement that “we cannot afford to put the current economic recovery at risk by allowing house prices to spiral out of control”; if so, what impact, if any, will the Government’s housing package announced this morning have on the ratio of house prices to household income in the short term?

I do stand by my statement from earlier today. New Zealand’s economic recovery from the effects of COVID-19 is among the best in the world, and we do see a risk to the recovery based on what we have seen in the recent increases in house prices. What we want to see in the short term is more sustainable house prices, and that is why we have chosen to use a range of levers that the Government has available to it to reduce upward pressure on prices. It is, however, too early to be specific about the effect of these measures on the ratio of house prices to household incomes.

💬 Hon Julie Anne Genter: Does the Government have a target for dropping the median house price relative to median household income, given that it is more than double where it was in the 1990s?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: There are a lot of variables and factors that go into where house prices sit, particularly with regard to a ratio to incomes. We obviously want to see incomes lift. We are also very, very clear that the level of house price rises we have seen in recent months in New Zealand is completely unsustainable, and that’s why we’ve acted today.

💬 Hon Julie Anne Genter: How can the Government make a substantial difference to house price affordability when they are aiming for continued growth in house prices?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well, I don’t want the member to read into my answers anything other than the fact that we believe that the level of house price rises that we’ve seen is unsustainable. We also want to see incomes lift, but being able to give specific numbers around where we think things will land relies on behavioural economics, other aspects of the housing market, and other players. What we are committed to is making sure that houses are more affordable and more first-home buyers get into houses.

💬 Hon Julie Anne Genter: Has he seen Bernard Hickey’s analysis that if house price growth moderates to 4 percent a year and household incomes rise 5 percent a year, then it would take 50 years—that’s half a century—to get house prices to income ratio back down to the 2001 level?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I’ve seen a variety of analysis, including from Mr Hickey, around these matters. I can only repeat for the member: on this side of the House, we are absolutely determined that we will not see the unsustainable house price rises that we have seen, that we will see more first-home buyers get into their homes, and we will continue to protect renters along the way.

💬 Hon Julie Anne Genter: Why didn’t he increase the brightline test to 15 or 20 years, as recommended by Treasury, and does he think that increasing it to 10 years will cause people to hold on to investment properties for longer to avoid paying tax?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: There was obviously a variety of advice that we got from officials on this matter. We think we’ve struck the right balance with the 10-year period. I do think, for a lot of renters, they want to know that their landlords will be in the market for a decent length of time. Stable renting arrangements are good for landlords and renters.

💬 Hon Julie Anne Genter: Has he received any advice on what impact increasing first-home buyer grants will have on house prices in the short term?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Again, there’s a wide variety of advice on that issue as well. What we want to be absolutely clear about here is that we are making this available to more New Zealanders to be able to access the kinds of things that help leverage them into a home. It is true that, I think in 2019, we made the change that you needed a 5 percent deposit. That will mean that from 1 May, an investor would require eight times that level of deposit in terms of the loan-to-value ratios. So I do think those home grants and home loans have a role to play in the system.

Question No. 3—Finance

3. to the Minister of Finance: What actions is the Government taking to support stability and fairness in the economy by managing demand for housing?

House price increases of the magnitude that we have seen in recent months are not only harmful to affordability, they also represent a risk to economic stability. The changes announced today include measures to tilt the balance towards first-home buyers, including reducing the competition that they face from speculators for typical first homes. None of the measures today affect the family home. There is no one single measure that will turn around a housing crisis of this magnitude, but a combination of all the measures we have announced today will make a difference.

💬 Barbara Edmonds: Will today’s announcement support stability and fairness by incentivising the building of new homes?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The Government wants to turn around the sale of existing homes to speculators so that first-home buyers have a fair shot in the market. We also want investors and developers to keep building new homes—not just for sale, but also for rent—so we have exempted new builds from the changes announced today. The extension of National’s brightline test from five years to 10 years will not apply to new builds. We are also exempting new builds from the changes to interest deductibility, with the exact details of that to be consulted on.

💬 Barbara Edmonds: What reactions has he seen to today’s announcement?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Many and varied. ANZ chief economist, Sharon Zollner, says the bank expects today’s announcements to have a meaningful impact on investor housing demand and to make “a decent start on the complex question of improving house supply.” Infometrics economist Brad Olsen says, “The Government has been told there was a problem … and has acted on it.” I’ve also received several emails today, including one from a member of the public that I’ll quote briefly: “Dear Ms Ardern and Mr Robertson, I am delighted to see the measures you have announced this morning to finally tilt the housing market away a bit from those investors who have been writing off interest costs against rental income and making untaxed profits for so long at the expense of struggling home buyers. The adjustment has been needed for a long time and I am thrilled that finally my youngest son, along with so many young people, may have a chance in the next few years to contemplate purchasing his own home.”

Question No. 4—Finance

4. to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all his statements and actions?

Yes, subject to any clarifications that I have made. In particular, I stand by my statement that this Government was elected to deal with important issues like the housing crisis, and that we will help tilt the market in favour of first-home buyers.

💬 Andrew Bayly: Why has he announced the raft of tax changes, including a tax on capital gains for housing, when, as he noted this morning, less than six months ago he stated that there would be no changes to tax beyond the higher-income tax rate?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I reject a number of the premises in that question, particularly in the first part of that question. It may have escaped the member, but in the last few months we’ve seen rampant out-of-control house price inflation, and the Government is moving to act on that.

💬 Andrew Bayly: Why has he rejected official advice that extending the brightline test to 10 years risks increasing rents by reducing the supply of rental accommodation, while rents have increased by $120 per week since he’s been the Minister of Finance?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: This was covered in an earlier question. Alongside the change we’re making to the brightline test, we are exempting new builds from that. This is an opportunity for those people who want to invest in building new homes and adding to our stock to, effectively, get a tax advantage.

💬 Andrew Bayly: Will increasing taxes and costs on mum and dad investors who own a rental property increase the supply of housing?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As I’ve just said in the answer to that member’s question, this is a whole package; it includes increases to supply. What really interests me is we hear from the National Party that there’s a housing crisis, but they don’t want to back anything that will actually change it. That is exactly the approach we saw for nine years. I’m proud that we’re addressing it.

💬 Andrew Bayly: Has he sought advice from officials on any other countries that have taxed their way to more affordable housing, and, if so, which are they?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: What I sought advice from and what the Government sought advice from officials on was how we could actually address a housing crisis. The member is characterising that completely incorrectly. What we have seen today from this Government is a package that will increase supply and dampen demand. We’re actually prepared to take actions to back first-home buyers, unlike the member over there.

Question No. 5—Housing

5. to the Minister of Housing: What announcements has she made about unlocking housing supply in New Zealand?

Today, I announced the Government’s $3.8 billion Housing Acceleration Fund, designed to jump-start housing developments and increase housing supply across the country. This will fund infrastructure on land we own and in areas where councils can demonstrate both housing need and a willingness for momentum to increase new housing. We recognise that, for too long, housing demand has outstripped supply, and as a result, we have seen house price increases of a magnitude that keeps homes out of reach of first-home buyers.

💬 Paul Eagle: How does this package differ from previous packages introduced to address the housing supply challenge?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: This is the first time since the 1970s that funding of this scale for supporting infrastructure, like roads to go to homes and water to taps, has been so closely linked with land, with the goal of bringing on new housing at pace. We are also supporting Kāinga Ora to borrow $2 billion extra to build a land acquisition programme which leverages its scale to increase the pace of housing developments coming online. These measures will reduce the impact of land banking that has held back housing developments in the past, and ensure a sustained pipeline of new housing.

💬 Paul Eagle: How will this package unlock housing supply by supporting infrastructure investment?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: We’ve listened to local government and developers, who have said that Government investment in infrastructure is the single most important contribution central government can make to increase housing supply. We know that some large projects have lost momentum because there was no certainty that the costs of infrastructure could or would be met. In green lighting developments that could otherwise sit empty, we are accelerating the unlocking of land by providing infrastructure for houses to be built on top of, and enabling developments of, a larger-scale size than we have previously seen.

💬 Nicola Willis: How many, if any, additional houses will be built in the next 12 months as a direct result of the Housing Acceleration Fund announced today?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: I realise that it’s only been a few hours since the release of the package and the member is probably still working her way through the detail of that package, but what I can tell that member is that, in terms of the timing of the fund, we will be making investments in the second part of this year. Some of it will go into our large-scale projects. What the modelling that is clearly in the papers—and I’m sure the member will get to it—shows, in our large-scale projects, we’re looking at 18,000 Government-enabled houses with 11,000 market-enabled. That doesn’t count the other projects that will be brought on between the contestable fund. So we will see more houses brought on in our large-scale projects. In terms of the things coming through council-funded contestable funds, we aren’t likely to see them within the next 12 months, but possibly within the next 18.

💬 Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: Can the Minister highlight how this housing policy announcement will increase supply in housing to low-income whānau, those on waiting lists for social housing, and Māori?

💬 Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: There is a number of questions in there; I’ll start with the last piece about how this will increase the supply of housing for Māori. One of the things that we have made sure that this fund is orientated towards is not only iwi development but also the ability to fund infrastructure for building on papakāinga and whenua Māori land, because we know that there are huge opportunities for increasing supply on that land, and have made sure that we have orientated towards that. One of the features of the fund is also $50 million that sits within the land for housing account, which actually allows for non-market outcomes, which will allow us to push through affordability, not only for homeownership but for rental accommodation as well.

Question No. 6—COVID-19 Response

6. to the Minister for COVID-19 Response: When the Government was negotiating a joint decision-making framework with Australia for the proposed trans-Tasman safe travel zone, did the Government develop a back-up plan in case agreement was not reached in the negotiations; if so, what was the plan?

Throughout our negotiations with the Australian Federal Government, work has been progressing, and is well advanced, on developing a draft response framework detailing the circumstances that may lead to a suspension of green zone travel on either side of the Tasman. The nature of this framework has not been dependent on our negotiating an approach, and it has meant that we haven’t had to start from scratch when pivoting towards pursuing a unilateral approach with Australia. Opening up quarantine-free travel is not a simple proposition, and the conditions outlined by the Prime Minister yesterday reiterate the Government’s ongoing commitment to commence safe travel with Australia when it’s safe to do so.

💬 Chris Bishop: Why did the Government only announce yesterday that they would make an announcement in April about a possible date for a safe travel zone with Australia if, as he said, the Government hasn’t had to start from scratch on the plans for the response framework?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I think if the member listened to the Prime Minister’s statement yesterday very carefully, she set out some preconditions for making the final decision to open free travel between New Zealand and Australia. Some of that requires some interaction with airlines, with airports, and so on. We’re being upfront with New Zealanders that that’s starting.

💬 Chris Bishop: Why is the Government not in a position to confirm the trans-Tasman safe travel arrangements when the Australians opened to New Zealand in October last year?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I think one of the things the member might like to reflect on, and we went through this last week, is that when quarantine-free travel is applying two ways, the volume of people crossing the Tasman will increase exponentially. So it will increase the risk on both sides of the Tasman; it will increase the number of people travelling quite considerably. That is why it is a little different to Australia’s position, where at the moment the number of people arriving in Australia is still significantly constrained by the fact that border restrictions remain in New Zealand.

💬 Chris Bishop: Why has the Government not finalised a response framework that is fit for purpose and ready, when the talks with Australia finished in February and the Government says it’s been working on the issues for months?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: There is still a two-way discussion between New Zealand and Australia to make sure that New Zealanders have a clear understanding of what the principles are that will guide Australia’s decision making when it comes to suspending green zone travel by Australia. We would like to ensure that when New Zealanders travel across the Tasman, they understand the circumstances that could lead to them being stuck there.

💬 Chris Bishop: In light of that answer around how there are still discussions happening with the Australians, when was the last time, if ever, he talked to the Australian Federal Minister of Health about finalising these arrangements?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: We’ve had several conversations, not in the last couple of weeks, but we have been in contact with one another. I do fully understand his position and the position of the Australian Government. There is still some work to do at an official level, though, which is progressing as quickly as we can. There are still some logistical hurdles to get through: for example, making sure that the operational separation at the airport is not going to lead to increasing risk—that work is ongoing—making sure that the crew separation and plane separation arrangements for green and red zone travel are robust—that work is ongoing—making sure that all of the technical issues that might arise are fully addressed; and making sure that all of the appropriate regulatory regimes and all of the issues associated with that are addressed. There are some flow-on immigration issues that could arise from free travel that is suspended. We need to understand those and make sure that the technical fixes are put in place for all of those so that everybody knows what they can expect when they travel across the Tasman.

💬 David Seymour: Is the problem that the Government still needs to do all that work, or that they have, but too many people would come; which one is it?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: It’s neither of those things. There is still work ongoing, yes. There is a degree to which we have to give people notice before we can implement some of the things that have been well worked up, and we continue to work to do that as quickly as we can.

Question No. 7—Education

7. to the Minister of Education: What is the Government doing to extend its current level of support to meet the skills needs of the construction industry and other trades?

The Government is extending the very popular Apprenticeship Boost initiative by a further four months to provide extra support to trades and trades training. Through the Apprenticeship Boost, employers can access a subsidy of $1,000 per month for their first-year apprentices and $500 per month for their second-year apprentices. Extending the boost to run through until August 2022 means that employers can keep getting the subsidy for apprentices who are in their first two years of training, but it also means that employers who have apprentices starting over those extra four months can get some of the Apprenticeship Boost as well, and that could benefit up to 5,000 additional apprentices.

💬 Marja Lubeck: Why is the Government taking this action now?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: This is part of a suite of measures that we are putting in place to help address the housing crisis. We know that the workforce shortages in building and construction that this Government inherited is having an effect on housing supply. Extending the Apprenticeship Boost will encourage more people into the building trades and will assist employers to keep their apprentices on, making sure that the workforce is out there and ready to get building.

💬 Marja Lubeck: Why has the Government chosen to address these challenges by extending Apprenticeship Boost?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Because it works. Since launching in August 2020, more than 10,000 employers have signed up and received almost $97 million in subsidies for more than 21,000 apprentices. All industries with formal apprenticeships training programmes are taking up this support, with 32 percent of the Apprenticeship Boost apprentices enrolled with the Building and Construction Industry Training Organisation and a further 22 percent with the Skills Organisation, which includes building and construction - related apprentices like plumbing, gasfitting, drainlaying, electrical, roofing, and scaffolding.

Question No. 8—Prime Minister

8. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement, “between 1991 and 2019, New Zealand house prices had the highest real growth in the OECD at 266 percent”; if so, will the policies announced today reduce real house price growth?

Yes. The policies announced today are one part of a range of programmes the Government is undertaking to address a housing crisis that has been decades in the making and to which there’s no quick fix. These include funding the $3.8 billion of vital infrastructure required in order to build new homes, incentivising investment in the construction of new homes, requiring councils to zone more housing and remove the barriers to intensification, repealing and replacing the Resource Management Act, making it easier for first-home buyers to get into a property, making sure we have the skilled workforce we need to build more homes, and delivering 18,350 more public and transitional homes by 2024 in the largest State-building programme since the 1970s. Cumulatively, we expect these programmes to place downward pressure on house price growth and increase the supply of new homes.

💬 David Seymour: Who’s most to blame for the current state of the housing market out of the previous Government, the present Government, property investors, or even coronavirus as the Minister of Finance alluded this morning?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I think, actually, on this side of the House, we’ve been very open over the fact that this has been an issue that has grown over a number of decades, and so rather than get into a situation of poring over which individual action has had the greatest impact, our view is that our job is to get on with the solutions.

💬 David Seymour: If this crisis has grown up over decades, why has this Government waited four years to do anything effective, if indeed it has now?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I reject the premise of that question. Of course, some of what I’ve read out on that list—including, for instance, the national policy statement that’s putting an expectation on councils to make sure that they are freeing up land and that they are seeing more intensification—is something that we worked on in the last term. The groundwork—the foundation work—around the Resource Management Act occurred in the last term. Our significant housing build programme for public housing occurred in the last term. What we are doing is acknowledging that we need to keep going, and in particular, in the last year we’ve seen significant house price growth. That tells us there are more levers we need to pull, and we have.

💬 Nicola Willis: Does her promise, announced today, to build 80,000 houses over 20 years override her previous promise to build 100,000 houses over 10 years?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The member completely misunderstands the acceleration fund. What I could recommend is that if the member looks at, for instance, the $1 billion infrastructure fund put forward by her party when last in office, the $3.8 billion we’ve put forward is in line with providing infrastructure in the same way, but the most material difference being that this is not a loan; it is a grant and, therefore, we expect wider uptake—and, of course, it is much larger. But we are, of course, expecting that it will be the private sector that is broadly involved in developing the houses on the land. That is vastly different than a Government house-build programme.

💬 Nicola Willis: A point of order, Mr Speaker.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, if the member wants a point of order, she’s got to stay standing up.

💬 Nicola Willis: Sure. The question was quite specific. It was about whether one promise overrode the other. I didn’t hear the Prime Minister address that.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, the member has been round here a very long time and she knows that point of order is disorderly.

💬 David Seymour: How would the Prime Minister describe the effects of today’s surprise announcement that mortgage interest will not be tax deductible for existing property investors in four years’ time on renters?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Well, first of all, I would not describe it as a surprise. I mean, what we did say is that we have seen significant house price growth. We asked for advice on how to address that most successfully, and when you look at the evidence around particularly the proportion of the market and lending that has been taken up by investors in the market, it points to us pulling levers in that area. I would also just highlight again for the member that one of the issues, of course, that causes potential increases in rent is simply a lack of supply, which is why we’re encouraging investors to invest in new builds. That is where we really would like their support and we’re encouraging their support.

💬 David Seymour: Is the Prime Minister seriously telling the House it was widely known and expected in the property investment community that her Government would make mortgage interest non-deductible today?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: No, that is not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that if you are looking at initiatives that will make a difference to tilting the balance for first-home buyers—as we long flagged we would—and if you’re seeking advice to do something about the increasing impact of speculative demand in the market, then, of course, we would look at a suite of initiatives in this space. I fully acknowledge that not everyone has anticipated that we would do that.

💬 David Seymour: Why should anyone believe that the effects of the proposed Housing Infrastructure Fund will be better than those of the 2016 Housing Infrastructure Fund?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Look, the member is, you know, right to ask the question. I think we’ve looked at the lessons learnt from that, and one of the points that councils have made is that, actually, this is one of their biggest barriers to seeing new development in areas of high demand, but they do not have the space on their balance sheets to take on extra debt, which is what the fund in 2016 asked them to do.

💬 David Seymour: What does it say about this Government’s priorities that the supply side changes will happen at some undetermined time in the future, but the tax changes to target property investors are being rammed through Parliament today under urgency?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: If we could build—physically build—houses at a greater pace than we are, of course we would be doing that. It is a reality of the fact that supply side measures take time. It would be wrong to say that this is the extent of them. Of course, we have already invested heavily in Kāinga Ora and large-scale build projects in public housing, in transitional housing, and that is why when we came in office, we saw roughly 300 houses being built; we now have more than 3,000. That is because we have already moved very quickly, but, unfortunately, supply side takes time.

💬 David Seymour: Point of order. It’s a technical point, but the question was about the legislative priorities. The Prime Minister has given us a commentary on how long it takes for those priorities to take effect, but she didn’t address the question of why they’ve decided to legislate a particular type of response today, which is actually a different question she didn’t address.

💬 SPEAKER: I appreciate the member’s point of order. I think, though, if he thinks about the full extent of his question, it was a little bit more than just the legislative priority. I think the member said, “versus building houses”. At that point, he did open it up for the Prime Minister to give a more extensive answer to his supplementary. My advice to the House, generally, is that the tighter the question the more support the member will get in having it addressed in a tight manner.

💬 David Seymour: Why should anyone believe that a 10-year brightline test will be more effective than a five-year brightline test when the latter failed to be more effective than a two-year brightline test?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I don’t know that it’s fair to make that judgment at this point. What I would say, though, is, of course, New Zealand had a pre-existing regime around intent. It had no time frame on it. What I think was right for at least the National Party of the day to have done was to say it would remove the ambiguity. They put a number on it, a year, but there was an intention test that previously had no end point on it. What we’ve been advised is that increasing will meet the reality of the market. Obviously, the recommendation had been to go to 15 or 20. Our view was that 10 would meet the reality of the market.

Question No. 9—Corrections

9. to the Minister of Corrections: Does he have confidence in the Department of Corrections and its CEO?

Yes, and yes.

💬 Rawiri Waititi: Why did the Minister not support the justice system when Judge David McNaughton determined the Department of Corrections acted inhumanely to wāhine Māori at Auckland women’s prison?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: I sought more information from Corrections; I received an interim report last week. I wasn’t happy with what I read, what I received, and I have directed Corrections to make a number of changes.

💬 Rawiri Waititi: Did the Minister choose to ignore the ruling of Judge David McNaughton highlighting the inhumane treatment of wāhine Māori at Auckland women’s prison, by putting bureaucracy, the inspectorate report, above the ruling of the judicial system?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: No.

💬 Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: You are quoted as saying—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order! I think it’s pretty unlikely that I was.

💬 Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: Right, no, not you Mr Speaker; to our Minister of Corrections—apologies. You are quoted as the Minister of Corrections, as saying—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order!

💬 Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: —get rid of the “you”? The Minister of Corrections, thank you—“It’s inappropriate for wāhine in prison to be treated as if their needs were the same as male prisoners.”; if the Minister accepts that this is true, does it also follow that inhumane conditions are unacceptable for tāne Māori, such as in Waikeria as well?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: Yes.

💬 Simeon Brown: When he said on Morning Report this morning, “Corrections officers in the front line were let down by people higher up the chain”, was he referring to himself?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: No.

Question No. 10—Health

10. to the Minister of Health: What recent announcements has he made on mental wellbeing telehealth supports for youth?

On Sunday, I announced $1 million of funding for Youthline services. Youthline manages more than 240,000 contacts from young people, and last year supported more than 26,000 young people across New Zealand. This $1 million a year of recurring funding will enable Youthline to bring on additional clinical support, which will allow it to provide support to thousands more young people in New Zealand. Youthline provides services across Aotearoa, utilising its phone, email, web chat, and text channels. It’s exactly the sort of flexible and people-centred approach that we’re aiming to develop across the entire mental health system.

💬 Dr Anae Neru Leavasa: Why is it important for young people to have access to mental wellbeing telehealth supports?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: It’s critical that young people have a broad range of support that they can access that’s youth-friendly and reflects their specific needs and the ways that they communicate. The ages of 12 to 24 are a time of rapid change and development for young people. During this time, they are at the highest risk for the onset of mental health problems and psychological distress.

💬 Dr Anae Neru Leavasa: What difference will this funding make to vulnerable young people?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: This funding will mean that there is free mental health support available to young people across New Zealand when and where they need it, and they’ll be able to talk to someone via phone, web chat, email, or text. We saw the number of calls to Youthline increase during the COVID-19 lockdown period last year. We want to make it easy for young people to access that support and to keep encouraging young people to reach out for help if they need it. They shouldn’t wait until they are in distress or that they reach crisis point to do so.

Question No. 11—Tourism

11. to the Minister of Tourism: Why did he not announce any new support for tourism when in Queenstown last week?

I did. I suggest the member read my speech I delivered to the Otago Tourism Policy School conference last Friday in Queenstown, as it outlined both a clear vision for the tourism sector in a post-COVID world and a proposed work programme from now until the borders open. The speech is online and freely available.

💬 Dr Duncan Webb: Had too many long words.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Does he agree with Queenstown—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! It was before the member started, but I think it was a demeaning comment, and the interjection should not be made. Dr Webb will withdraw and apologise.

💬 Dr Duncan Webb: I withdraw and apologise.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Does he agree with Queenstown tourism operator David Lynott, who said after his visit—and I quote—“We want some definite answers, not just … if[s], buts or maybes. … as anyone knows you need [a] plan.”, and, if so, why, after six months as Minister, didn’t he announce new support and an actual plan to help the struggling tourism businesses last week?

💬 Hon STUART NASH: First of all, I don’t agree. Second of all, I said I did.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Is he aware yesterday’s announcement of a date for an announcement for a date for the trans-Tasman bubble creates greater uncertainty and means that under-pressure tourism businesses have greater need for new support, not less?

💬 Hon STUART NASH: I disagree.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Is the reason that he didn’t announce new support for the tourism sector on Friday because he agrees with his senior ministerial colleague Damien O’Connor that—and I quote—“COVID-19 has taught the tourism sector not to be so cocky.”, and does he think tourism businesses that are closing this week are being cocky?

💬 Hon STUART NASH: At the risk of throwing my good friend under a Kiwi Experience bus, I speak for the Government in terms of tourism, not Minister O’Connor.

💬 SPEAKER: That concludes oral questions. I have received a letter from the Hon Judith—

💬 Hon Stuart Nash: Point of order, Mr Speaker.

💬 SPEAKER: Sorry? Oh, we’ve still got one more, have we? Sorry, I apologise. It felt like we’d had enough.

Question No. 12—Small Business

12. to the Minister for Small Business: What reports has he seen on the take-up by small businesses of Digital Boost?

I receive regular reports from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) on the performance and rate of uptake in the Digital Boost educate programme. Support to small businesses to adapt, recover, and grow is a priority in our COVID recovery plan. The $20 million Digital Boost programme was announced in Budget 2020 and got under way in December. MBIE have advised me that 9,272 users from 8,992 businesses have registered for support with training and to improve their digital skills and their use of technology—57 percent of the businesses were sole traders or have one employee, 19 percent have between two and five employees, 8 percent have between six and nine employees, and 9 percent have more than 10 employees. Feedback continues to be strongly positive, with almost 75 percent of participants rating the programme four or five out of five. Research from MBIE also shows that businesses who are more digitally enabled demonstrate more resilience and are 18 percent more likely to have financial reserves to survive for several months.

💬 Jo Luxton: What are examples of small businesses who have digitally boosted their businesses?

💬 Hon STUART NASH: The examples are numerous, but I can quickly give you three: Te Koha Aotearoa—they are a family-run tourism business based in Franz Josef that enables visitors to make their own pounamu, and by participating in Digital Boost they have built a website for domestic tourists as well as selling their carvings directly online—FIT60, former All Black Keven Mealamu developed a strong web and social media presence as well as a community forum for his fitness business, and all of these skills developed from participating in Digital Boost; and Aligned Movement, a Kerikeri-based boutique fitness and dance studio that has positively benefited by delivering classes via social media, a direct benefit from participating in Digital Boost.

💬 Jo Luxton: What feedback has been received from businesses using Digital Boost?

💬 Hon STUART NASH: Two pieces of feedback come to mind. One user said—and I quote—“I have felt very depressed since COVID hit. Came to the realisation that e-commerce site is the best option for me at this time. I am stoked at these valuable tutorials being available online. They are so inspiring and have lifted my spirit immensely.”, while another said—and I quote—“Thanks, and I sincerely appreciate all of the fabulous tutorials that you have posted. I have already learnt so much over the past couple of weeks since signing up.”

💬 SPEAKER: That, this time, concludes oral questions.