Oral Questions

1. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government’s statements and actions?

Yes, especially the hard work that’s being done to make sure that as we transition into a new alert level in New Zealand, we are opening up the economy and getting as many New Zealanders as we can back into the workplace but that we are doing so as safely as possible. Many members will have seen reporting overnight, as we have seen in recent days, of some countries that have been free of COVID-19 cases—in some cases, up to a month free—who are seeing cases now emerge. We do need to make sure that we protect the hard-earned gains of all New Zealanders—all 5 million of them—by making sure that we act cautiously but that we keep moving forward.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: How much debt is her Government willing to take on in response to COVID-19?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I, of course, won’t get ahead of the Budget, which the member only needs to make it through one more day before he will see some of Treasury’s work in that regard. But I will just reflect again, as I did yesterday in this House: virtually no country in the world will get away scot-free from the economic impacts of what will be one of the largest shocks to the global economy in our lifetimes. What we’re working hard to do is soften that blow, make sure we’re positioned to support New Zealand businesses, make sure we’re positioned to support their employees, and get us back into the position of rebuilding as fast as possible.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Will the Budget show Government debt rising by $100 billion over the coming years?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, the member can use up all his questions, if he would like, making speculative statements, but I’ll keep giving the same answer. But, again, what I would also point out is that that member’s Government went through a significant economic shock once before, as well. This one is rivalling that. This is a one-in-100-year event. What we have made very, very clear, though, is that we will not take an approach of cuts and austerity when New Zealanders know that we saved for a rainy day, we got debt down for a rainy day, and that rainy day has arrived.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Who is suggesting, as she has, cuts and austerity, and is she simply scaremongering with no foundation?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: No.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Does she agree with Cameron Bagrie that the increase in Government debt is a “liability with interest on the next generation, our kids. They are going to have to pay it back. Spending needs to be reprioritised, KiwiBuild needs to be redirected”—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order!

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: —“we need a pragmatic plan that is not an ideologically driven one.”?

💬 SPEAKER: Order! I just want to make it clear that there’s not an unlimited use of quotes. Members can use short quotes in order to justify a question, but not a long quote, which in itself included several questions, if the Prime Minister was to respond to them.

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I actually saw other statements made by Mr Bagrie suggesting that, actually, this is the time when we should, equally, make sure that we are investing, make sure that we are supporting our economy and our recovery, and was not making overly simplistic statements or claims about debt and the role it plays in a recovery.

💬 Hon Grant Robertson: On the subject of the comments of Mr Cameron Bagrie, has the Prime Minister seen Mr Bagrie’s comments from this morning, where he said New Zealand has got lower levels of Government debt than the rest of the OECD, and so we’re in relatively good shape in taking debt to 50 percent—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! Again—I mean, I know I’ve interrupted the Minister more quickly than I did the Leader of the Opposition. He should have taken the lesson—one of those quotes.

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I’ll take the quote around lower levels of Government debt and agree with Mr Bagrie. We’ve always said that we have come into this situation in a better position than most, including the UK, Australia, and the United States. That goes both for low debt and that also goes for low unemployment. This next period of time is going to be painful for every country around the world, but New Zealand is positioned to fare well through that storm.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: Has the Prime Minister got any reports on how an adult—or, for that matter, an MP—would take so long to work out that this economic blizzard is going to be against the next generation?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: We are all too aware of the impact of dramatic economic shocks on those who will be following after us. There are many politicians on this side of the House who were not only here as decision makers or observers of the 1980s; there are many of us who grew up under it and remember it well.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Does she accept that an extra $100 billion in debt is equivalent to around $50,000 for every New Zealand household and will have to be paid back over time?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The member will know that we are a Government who is very wise to the impact of spending decisions. That is why we actually focused on making sure that whilst we invested in our people, we also got debt down relative to where it was left by the last Government. But the member also, I’ve noticed, has proposed significant amounts of spending, and if the member now sounds like he is also proposing that there should be no debt, that suggests to me that he is, potentially, suggesting cuts to other services.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Does she agree with economist Cameron Bagrie that, in tomorrow’s Budget, “We are going to need a plan, not a spend-up—not throwing money around like confetti”?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I absolutely agree that we need a plan for the future that means that we are investing in our people; that we are creating jobs, jobs, jobs; and that we’re looking after the wellbeing of every New Zealander. The Budget tomorrow will be the beginning of a longer-term project by this Government to make sure that we respond, that we recover, and that we rebuild together.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Does she agree with tax specialist Geof Nightingale that “The short reality is we are going to have an enormous blowout in our debt.”?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, if the member is promoting, for instance, his own spending plans—particularly, recently, some of the projects that he’s announced—the member would also be looking at options around borrowing. The point that we are making is that it must be investment that is focused on growing jobs and growing the economy. That is how we stimulate the economy. That is how we get growth in the economy. That is how we recover. If the member has an alternative plan, I’d be very interested in hearing it.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: What is the Government’s plan to manage debt in order to reduce the burden on future taxpayers?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Jobs, jobs, jobs.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: What’s the plan on those jobs?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The member only needs to wait another 24 hours, but the member also only need look at our response to date. We moved even before we were in a stage of lockdown to put in place a wage subsidy scheme to make sure that New Zealanders retained their attachment to their employer. That has benefited over one million New Zealanders. We put in place stimulus into the economy in the form of a winter energy payment increase that has already gone into the back pockets of those who have the smallest—

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: That’s got nothing to do with jobs.

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: —incomes, and that—the member doesn’t see the connection to stimulating the economy; I cannot help him with that. But if you want to make sure that you see money flowing, you give it to those on the lowest incomes.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Will the Government outline a plan, even a long-term one, to return to surplus in tomorrow’s Budget?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, the member well knows that, for that form of forecasting, he’ll have to wait for the Budget.

Question No. 2—Finance

2. to the Minister of Finance: How will Budget 2020 support the actions the Government has already taken in response to the COVID-19 pandemic?

The Government’s plan to take on COVID-19 consists of three stages: respond, recover, and rebuild. Budget 2020 will build on the significant investments we have already made in our initial response to the impacts of COVID-19. The Budget package will complement our existing measures, such as the wage subsidy scheme, business tax changes, the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme, and others that have been designed to fight the virus and cushion the blow on Kiwi workers and businesses. The Budget will be very much a game of two halves: the core cost pressures package to support and maintain strong public services and the continuation of our response to COVID-19. For any more detail than that, members will have to wait until tomorrow.

💬 Greg O’Connor: What reports has he seen on the Government’s small business cash-flow scheme?

💬 SPEAKER: Order! I’m trying to—I suppose it’s a prior measure. Away you go. Answer the question.

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Sorry, Mr Speaker. Yes, I’ve seen the latest report from Inland Revenue, providing statistics for the first 36 hours that the scheme has been open for applications. In that time, we have received 21,000 applications, representing 10 applications every minute; 16,700 of these have already been approved, representing $280 million in lending. This money will be in these businesses’ bank accounts within the next five days. We are committed to sharing the burden of the impacts of COVID-19. This scheme is helping support small to medium sized enterprises’ immediate cash-flow needs and to meet fixed costs.

💬 Greg O’Connor: How will Budget 2020 support the next stages of the Government’s plan to tackle COVID-19?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Budget 2020 will set our direction for the next stages of responding and rebuilding, but COVID-19 requires more of us than that. The world is still learning about what the impacts of COVID-19 will be, and its impact is only just beginning to be felt in our economy. We will continue to work carefully through our next steps. That’s why our economic response to COVID-19 has to happen every day, not just on Budget day. Just as businesses and workers are fighting every day to secure their futures, so we will keep fighting to protect lives and livelihoods, every day supporting New Zealanders to get through and to rebuild stronger and better.

Question No. 3—Education

3. to the Minister of Education: Does he have confidence that schools will be able to deal with the financial and social impact of COVID-19?

Yes. Over the last couple of months, the Government has been providing support to schools during COVID-19, including $87.7 million for distance learning, funding to cover casual staff during lockdown, and the extension of the wage subsidy scheme to school hostel staff, among other examples. There is, of course, more work that needs to be done. I want to thank schools and all of those working in the education sector for their professionalism and their efforts to support students, young people, and all New Zealanders, in fact, during this very difficult time.

💬 Hon Nikki Kaye: What is the estimated financial impact on schools of falling international student numbers and fund-raising revenue as a result of COVID-19?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: At this point, it’s very difficult to come up with an accurate projection of the likely impact. The vast majority of international school students that were expected this year arrived before the border closures started, and, at this point, we haven’t had clear feedback on the number of students who have returned to their home countries. In terms of local fund-raising, that’s really hypothetical as to how much fund-raising schools will be able to do between now and the end of the year. We are looking very closely at that. I do acknowledge that it’s likely to have an impact on schools, and we’ll continue to talk to them about how we can help to manage some of that.

💬 Hon Nikki Kaye: What is the public health rationale, if any, and the expected social impacts of no social distancing in school transport?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: It wouldn’t be fair to say that there’s absolutely no social distancing in school transport. There is, for example, distancing around the driver to ensure that the driver doesn’t come into contact with the students. With regard to the rest of the school bus, the school bus, really, is no different to a classroom, and there’ll be clear tagging-on and tagging-off measures so that we know exactly which students were on the bus, so that, if we have to take any follow-up action as a result of a COVID-19 case, we’re able to do so.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: Would the Minister be able to assuage the Hon Nikki Kaye’s concerns about the school funding by pointing to this Government’s recent injection of substantial funding into school administration, which wasn’t there hitherto until he came to power?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: The current Government has, in fact, been significantly increasing school operations funding over the term of our Government, and there’ll be a little bit more to say about that in the next 24 hours, I would predict.

💬 Hon Nikki Kaye: What is the public health rationale and expected social impacts of more than 10 teachers being allowed to gather but not 10 people at a funeral?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I think the assertion in the last part of the member’s question—I think she might be aware that the Government has made further announcements regarding funerals just in the last couple of hours.

💬 Hon Nikki Kaye: When will he announce a decision on whether international students can come to New Zealand so that schools can address the long-term financial impacts of COVID-19?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: What I’ve said to all of those involved in international education is that, as soon as we can get a robust arrangement around quarantine up and running, we will look to welcome international students back to New Zealand. It’d be fair to say that, for the schools sector, that’s one of the more challenging sectors because of the pastoral care that would be involved in any kind of quarantine arrangement, whereas if you’re bringing in tertiary students, the pastoral care needs may be less if they’re in quarantine. But we’ll certainly work with the sector to get such a scheme up and running as quick as we can, consistent with the public health advice that we need to, I think, all follow to make sure we’re keeping New Zealanders safe and stopping a further spread of COVID-19 due to people coming through the border.

Question No. 4—Finance

4. to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he seen on the impact of COVID-19 on the New Zealand economy?

I’ve seen a range of forecasts from Treasury and from other economists, some of them very recently. Their estimates of the impact of COVID-19 varies significantly, with the key factor in the variance being how long we spend under lockdown. This supports our “go hard, go early” approach to COVID-19 and that the best economic response we can provide to the virus is to eliminate it. What this evidence also demonstrates is that there is not yet consensus about what will happen to the economy in the future as a consequence of COVID-19. What I can say is that this Government is taking timely and targeted action to support jobs, businesses, and families, and we will provide our next steps in that plan tomorrow.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Does the Reserve Bank’s estimate, just released, that there will be 150,000 job losses by September match his expectations?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I will deliver the Budget tomorrow, which will include Treasury’s forecasts, and I don’t want to get ahead of that at this stage. Obviously, those are the Reserve Bank’s forecasts.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Is he absolutely certain that Kiwis such as construction workers weren’t prevented from working for longer than they needed to be?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I am convinced of the strategy that the Government undertook to go hard and go early. I know the member is making a reference to the fact that there were different rules in Australia when it comes to the construction industry. Obviously, we will only be able to see the outcome of that when all of the statistics are in for both Australia and New Zealand. What I think, when I think about what’s happened in terms of the virus—its impact on people from a health and an economic sense—is that we can say that both New Zealand and Australia have done well.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Why has his Government been slow to help small businesses cope with costs such as rents when they have no revenue?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I reject the premise of that question.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Does he acknowledge that the continuing restrictions under level 2 and 1 will cost many more jobs?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Our goal, as the Prime Minister has articulated, is to ensure that people stay in jobs, that we support the private sector to create jobs, and that, as a Government, we do everything we can to ensure we limit the number of people who lose jobs. That is our plan, that is our goal, regardless of what level of the framework we’re at.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Will the Government redirect spending from low value for money areas, such as the free fees policy, to high value for money areas like effective support for small businesses to save jobs?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I’m disappointed that the member believes that investing in education is of low value.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: What does a 4.5 percent fall in GDP, as forecast by the Reserve Bank for this year, mean for Kiwi families?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I think Kiwi families are well aware of the fact that we are facing a one-in-100-year shock to our economy and our society. I said, as far back in this House as 17 March, that we would be in for a significant shock to the economy that inevitably would see GDP go down and inevitably would see debt and deficits. That is what happens. The good news for New Zealanders and the good news for Kiwi families is that we came into this with a very strong fiscal position, which enables us to be able to come out the other side strongly.

💬 David Seymour: Supplementary.

💬 SPEAKER: Before the member asks the supplementary, I’ll indicate that the Clerk’s Office has just been informed that there’s been a transfer of supplementaries to the member, which breaches the rules which require the indication to the Speaker’s office before the House sits. Last week, I stopped the Green Party asking questions because I wasn’t told before the House sat of the transfer of questions from another party. I am, however, prepared, on this occasion, in order to allow for accountability—

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: Seek leave.

💬 SPEAKER: No, I’m not going to seek leave, because it’s not in the Standing Orders; it’s one of the office practices. I am going to allow the member to ask the two supplementaries, but this is the last occasion where it occurs where the proper processes are not followed. David Seymour.

💬 David Seymour: Mr Speaker, thank you for that forbearance. Can he tell the House to what extent the Government intends to take advantage of reports just now that the Reserve Bank will increase its Large Scale Asset Purchase programme from a value of $33 billion, previously announced, to $60 billion?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: All matters to do with the Government’s intentions around borrowing will be covered tomorrow.

💬 David Seymour: How does the Minister intend to repay $60 billion of money issued in return for Government assets by the Reserve Bank?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I believe that you’ll find that the Reserve Bank has created an envelope of borrowing that is possible. That doesn’t mean the Government would necessarily take it all up or that the Reserve Bank would use it all. What I would say is that in our history in New Zealand, we have had times where we have needed to borrow money in order to be able to make sure that New Zealanders get through a crisis and come out the other side. The answer to that, for me, is making sure that we support people to get into work, to be productive, to grow our economy sustainably. The answer is not cuts and austerity.

Question No. 5—Education

5. to the Associate Minister of Education: What recent announcements has she made regarding support for playcentres?

Minister Hipkins and I were pleased to announce extra funding of $3.1 million over the next four years from Budget 2020. Playcentres are an iconic part of the New Zealand early learning landscape and they have been struggling in recent years to remain sustainable so that they can continue to provide a unique early learning choice to around 9,500 children and their families.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: For those MPs looking for a new career, why is it important that Government support early learning, parent-led environments such as playcentre?

💬 Hon TRACEY MARTIN: Playcentre, as it became known in 1973, had its roots in the progressive educational ideas of the 1930s, which placed new emphasis on early childhood and what we now accept as the norm—that children learn through play. But they also support the learning of parents to be better parents, and this is their unique value to New Zealand.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: To ask the crunch question, when was the last time there was a proper increase to playcentre funding rates?

💬 Hon TRACEY MARTIN: Playcentre received a cost adjustment in this Government’s first two Budgets of 1.6 percent in 2018 and then 1.8 percent in 2019. But aside from cost adjustments, the last major increase to playcentre funding rates was in 2006—14 years ago when New Zealand First was part of that Government.

Question No. 6—Education

6. to the Minister of Education: What action is the Government taking in Budget 2020 to strengthen and support home-based early childhood education?

Home-based early childhood education (ECE) has been the fastest growing part of the early childhood sector. We’re working to ensure that, in the future at least, 80 percent of the home-based educator workforce will hold a required qualification to ensure better and more consistent quality. In this year’s Budget, we’re investing $36.2 million of additional funding over the next four years to support home-based early learning services’ transition to a more professionalised educator workforce. This will lift the quality funding rate for home-based early childhood education by 5.4 percent from 1 January.

💬 Kiritapu Allan: How will this funding support home-based early childhood education services that do not yet qualify for the quality rate to support their educators to be qualified?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: It’s important to note that there are two rates of funding for home-based services. One is the standard rate and the other is the quality rate for services that have higher levels of qualification. Budget 2020 is providing fees assistance for educators who otherwise wouldn’t be able to access fees-free. This funding will provide tertiary fees assistance for up to 2,600 home-based educators. Home-based visiting teachers are likely to experience an increase in their workload as they support those educators to gain their level 4 ECE qualifications, and to recognise this, the Budget is providing additional payments for those who are studying and increasing the visiting teacher hours’ allocation by five hours per week.

💬 Kiritapu Allan: When can home-based early childhood education services expect to hear more about the phasing in of strengthened quality requirements?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: We’ve been working very closely with the sector to develop the reform programme and the implementation plan for that, and I expect to be able to announce new regulatory requirements and the time frames around their implementation within the next month.

Question No. 7—Health

7. to the Minister of Health: Has he received any specific advice on the mental health implications of limiting funerals to 10 people; if so, will he commit to releasing this advice in full this week?

As I said yesterday, the issue of attendance at funerals is one of the most difficult that has faced the Government during the COVID-19 pandemic. I completely understand the desire of people to gather and grieve together. This morning, I spoke with a number of funeral directors, the Prime Minister spoke with church leaders, and I understand Ministers Henare and Davis have spoken with iwi leaders. We are listening and we are consulting. We hear the concerns and I’m confident that we will find a workable solution that keeps people safe and allows more flexibility around funerals and tangihanga. In answer to the member’s specific question about advice, the answer is no.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: You’re not going to release the advice?

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: No, he hasn’t got any.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Didn’t ask for any. Does he agree—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Does the member want to ask a supplementary?

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Yes, a supplementary.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, the member should ask a supplementary.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Does he agree that it is easier to trace 100 family members at a funeral than 100 strangers at a restaurant, and, if not, why not?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: The member raises a hypothetical question. Obviously, it would depend upon the individual circumstances of the gatherings.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Does he accept that the Prime Minister stating that 100 people would be allowed to gather last Thursday, only to change that on Monday, has added to the enormous distress caused, and that the Prime Minister shouldn’t have changed her mind, reducing the number to 10?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I reject the premise of the member’s question.

💬 Hon Chris Hipkins: Which does he think would cause the most distress for New Zealanders: taking our time to ensure that we get the transition right or risking a further spike in COVID cases, resulting in harsher measures in the future?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: Of course getting this transition right is the most important thing. We want to make sure that we lock in the gains that have been made. New Zealanders have made considerable sacrifice, and what we don’t want to see is the situation we’ve seen overseas where people attending large funerals have experienced extra tragedy because people at the funerals have become infected with coronavirus.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: How does he respond to the Cambridge funeral director who said families are being left with lifelong scars because of the unreasonable restrictions that he is attempting to defend today of the Prime Minister saying 100 people last week and then this week dropping it back to 10?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: What I would say is that my heart goes out to any family that is grieving. Considerable sacrifices have been made by New Zealanders in recent weeks, and losing a loved one is always difficult. I do accept that current restrictions on funerals have been tough for many New Zealanders over those recent weeks. These restrictions were not introduced lightly. They were introduced to help keep us all safe and avoid situations such as those we’ve seen overseas that I’ve just mentioned, which have led to the transmission of COVID-19. I do expect to have more to say about the handling of funerals shortly. And I’d also note that no one needs to feel alone at this time. We have made a range of mental health supports available for people, including those who are grieving, and I would encourage people in distress to seek out help.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Does he understand why a daughter mourning the death of her father feels that “They have no empathy for families in mourning.”, and, if so, will he commit and announce today a changing of the rules on funerals and tangihanga, with the public health evidence that goes with it, to let New Zealanders grieve?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: Obviously, grief at any time is a very difficult thing for people to go through, and my sympathy goes out to that family.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: I seek leave to table a letter from Grinter’s Funeral Home in Cambridge that talks about families being left with—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! Is there any objection to that letter being tabled? There appears to be none.

Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.

Question No. 8—Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media

8. to the Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media: How is the Government improving broadband access in rural and regional communities?

The Government is investing in rural and regional network capacity in order to increase connectivity and the wellbeing of isolated communities as New Zealand’s economy recovers from COVID-19. I’d like to thank the Minister Shane Jones, who I worked with to announce a recent package which allocated $15 million for upgrading existing rural mobile towers which are at capacity, upgrading wireless backhaul which connects remote sites to central networks, and installing external antennas on households to improve coverage. This investment in rural capacity will allow the upgrade of existing mobile towers to bring broadband services to up to 8,000 households in areas where they have limited or no connectivity. The capacity upgrades can be implemented relatively quickly to provide urgently needed connectivity.

💬 Kieran McAnulty: Why is it important to improve connectivity for New Zealanders who live in rural and regional communities?

💬 Hon KRIS FAAFOI: With the impacts of COVID-19 seeing increasing numbers of New Zealanders using broadband for education, work, and maintaining links with friends and whānau, connectivity is more important than ever before. Upgrading infrastructure is likely to be the fastest way to provide broadband to rural households where there is currently coverage but the towers are at or near capacity. Broadband connectivity is crucial to assist economic activity in rural areas where capacity upgrades are urgent.

💬 Kieran McAnulty: What other work is the Government doing to improve rural connectivity?

💬 Hon KRIS FAAFOI: There’s been plenty of activity to address connectivity issues in the last 2½ years. On top of the major programmes, there has been additional investment to increase connectivity, there’s been the expansion of the Rural Broadband Initiative 2 and the Mobile Black Spots Fund in late December 2018, which saw a $100 million investment; also the West Coast connectivity package, which came out of the Provincial Growth Fund (PGF), of $45 million; and, in February 2019, the Māori connectivity project and digital hubs—again, out of the PGF—which was an additional investment of $21 million.

Question No. 9—Regional Economic Development

9. to the Minister for Regional Economic Development: What statements or actions, if any, has he made or taken to protect the 100 Air New Zealand heavy engineering workshop jobs in Nelson at threat from proposed closure?

Naturally, the COVID experience has been harrowing for the employees of entities such as Air New Zealand. Funnily enough, the CEO of Air New Zealand has reached out to me. One of the items that I will be discussing with him when we have said meeting will be concerns that I’ve heard from Whangarei, Kerikeri, Nelson, and Rotorua.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was what statements or actions had he specifically taken. I don’t think he addressed that.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, I think I heard that the Minister had agreed to meet with Mr Foran.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Does he support the proposed closure of the regional maintenance facility in Nelson that will cost regional New Zealand over 100 jobs?

💬 Hon SHANE JONES: The Crown has allocated—by way, I think, of convertible note—nigh on a billion dollars to our national carrier. The final shape and form of the Crown’s interest in that national carrier is a matter for the future. However, we have inherited an operational model that, despite my zest for better outcomes, prohibits Ministers from running the operations of Air New Zealand. But my thoughts are most certainly with the employees as they go through this harrowing experience all throughout our provinces.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Has he made any representations to the Minister of Transport or Finance to tag the $900 million of Government support for Air New Zealand to jobs or services to the regions?

💬 Hon SHANE JONES: The member would be aware there are a host of fiscal injections. One has already been made into the operations of Air New Zealand, and another still exists, where airlines that, arguably, are competitors with Air New Zealand—certainly, in those areas where Air New Zealand long since neglected. It seems to me that once we know what exactly the petition says, then we’ll be in a position to ascertain what, if anything, Ministers can do, given the vast gulf between the operations of that company and the money that was required by them to keep their operations in a robust form.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Why has he made no public statement in support of the regional maintenance facility and the 100 affected skilled engineering jobs, when he has on 17 previous occasions made public statements on Air New Zealand’s operational matters?

💬 Hon SHANE JONES: Yes, I have practised my verbal skills in relation to the model which Christopher Luxon ran, and now he’s on his way as the putative leader on the other side of the House. COVID requires a very judicious approach to the affairs of companies as important as Air New Zealand, and, as I have said—as I have explained—once the opportunity arises I will meet with the CEO and relevant executive. I would say that the Nelson economy has many other arrows to its fiscal quiver. One of those is the actual Waimea Dam. I am actively pursuing in what way, as the provincial champion, I can futureproof said dam.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Does he agree with the lead petitioner of the petition tabled today of over 16,000 people, Mr Willie Snowden, that his lack of support for the retention of these 100 high-rate jobs in regional New Zealand makes a mockery of his self-proclaimed title as the champion of the regions?

💬 Hon SHANE JONES: It will require more than one random, indiscriminate, hurtful remark for that crown to be removed from my head. The person, Mr Snowden—I do not know the individual, and I do not wish to speak against such an individual coming and using his rights as a citizen to petition Parliament. But any suggestion that Air New Zealand can be directed by a single Minister as to how they deploy the $960 million—unfortunately, I’m blocked constitutionally by doing so. That’s as a consequence of the last regime that that former Minister was a part of.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Both this Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have claimed that legislative changes made by National prevented the Minister—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! I know the member doesn’t like me interrupting—he will resume his seat—but right from the first phrase it becomes clear that he is indicating his unhappiness with the answer, and possibly with the accuracy of the answer. If that’s what he’s intending to do, he should stop now. If he has a point of order he will point out the Standing Order and then move on to it.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: I seek leave of the House to table the response from the Parliamentary Library with regard to the specific actions that were taken with respect to Air New Zealand that disprove the claims made by the Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, what I’m going to do is take the first phrase that the member used, rather than the rest of it, and seek the leave of the House for that document to be tabled. Is there any objection? There is none.

Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.

Question No. 10—Health

10. to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by all the Government’s statements and actions on coronavirus management at Waitakere Hospital?

Yes, in their full context, which includes the information available at the time.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: How many people associated with Waitakere Hospital have developed coronavirus infection, apart from those admitted from St Margaret’s?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I don’t have the exact figures in that respect in front of me. Obviously, that’s a matter that the clinicians have judged and will count in the particular cluster. I’m happy to supply the member with a written answer if he wants to put down a written specific question of that nature.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: Further to that reply, does he accept Waitakere Hospital is a cluster; and, if so, why is it not listed on the Ministry of Health website as such?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I’m happy to come back to the member with a specific answer on that. I’m sure it has to do with the way in which clusters are categorised. My understanding, though—and I stand to be corrected on this—is that it’s regarded as the St Margaret’s Rest Home cluster because, indeed, that’s where the residents were that were being cared for in the Waitakere Hospital, and that only a limited number of people beyond that have been infected. And I would expect that that’s probably why it doesn’t meet the definition of a cluster in the terms that the member is suggesting.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: How is it a “textbook management of coronavirus”, that he has previously stated, when Waitakere Hospital nursing staff were required to move between coronavirus patients one day—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! The member will start again, and I’ll ask the members on my left to stop interrupting their colleague. Yes, I did work out who it was, Mr Bridges. Start again.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: How is it a “textbook management of coronavirus”, that he has previously stated, when Waitakere Hospital nursing staff were required to move between coronavirus patients one day and virus-free wards the next day?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: Whilst I don’t quite agree with the way that the member’s running sentences together there, what I do know is that infection control is a clinical matter best left to clinical experts.

💬 Hon Alfred Ngaro: What does he say to the son who writes this morning, “My mother went into Waitakere Hospital six weeks ago for a bladder infection, but now it seems they have infected my old mother. I’m very angry. The chances of her surviving will be remote.”?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I am not familiar with the specifics of that person’s case and would not expect to be. Those are individual clinical matters, obviously of a personal nature. But, obviously, anybody who is suffering at this time has my sympathy.

Question No. 11—Health

11. to the Minister of Health: What recent announcements has he made about support for frontline health workers dealing with COVID-19?

Yesterday was International Nurses Day. Moreover, this year is also the International Year of the Nurse and Midwife. I took the opportunity to thank 60,000 nurses for the excellent work that they do every day. Their work is particularly visible to the public this year in that the work they’re doing to test, contact trace, and care for COVID-19 patients is reported on daily. I also took this opportunity to announce three new initiatives to support our front-line health and disability workers, like our nurses. These are, firstly, temporary accommodation; secondly, counselling support; and, thirdly, a new clinical advice phone number.

💬 Greg O’Connor: Who can use these services?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: The $10 million ring-fenced accommodation fund will help protect vulnerable loved ones and help staff to continue delivering essential health and disability services during the COVID period. People who work in close contact with patients qualify if they have been redeployed to another region because of COVID-19, or if they live with a vulnerable person who is at a higher risk of severe illness should they contract COVID-19. This includes people who are aged 70 and over and/or have certain health conditions. The full list of conditions and criteria are listed on the Ministry of Health’s website. We do want to keep all families safe and free from COVID-19, and this accommodation will help us to do that. Additionally, the clinical support phone line can be accessed by medical professionals working in the community, and the counselling support phone line is available for anyone who works in a health setting who needs to talk.

💬 Greg O’Connor: What other support is available to front-line workers needing further mental health support?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: We are a Government who take mental health seriously. Throughout the COVID-19 lockdown, we made sure that mental health services continued as an essential service. We also put an additional $15 million aside for mental health supports that could be accessed by the New Zealand public from home, as well as the tailored support for our front-line workers which I announced yesterday.

Question No. 12—Health

12. to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by the restrictions for alert level 2?

Yes. In particular, I stand by the precautionary approach we are taking. Nobody wants to see us return to alert level 3 or 4.

💬 Simon O’Connor: Which part of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act relating to the freedom of religion did he consider when agreeing to the restrictions on all religious practice—in particular the very small quote, “Every person has the right to manifest that person’s religion … in community with others,”?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: My understanding is that the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet was mindful of those particular issues and worked through them.

💬 Simon O’Connor: Would the Minister like to reconsider his answer, considering that the legal advice given to the Minister and in regards to the COVID-19 Public Health Response Bill explicitly did not mention the right to religious freedom at all?

💬 SPEAKER: I don’t think you can explicitly not mention something, but anyway.

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I apologise if I misspoke. It’s certainly something that I’m aware of, and it is certainly something that has been discussed.

💬 Simon O’Connor: Will he be having conversations with the Minister of Justice or the Attorney-General or officials to complain and point out the glaring lack of any mention of the right to religious freedom in the advice given to Government?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: Certainly at different times, when I have received or seen advice around these issues, what has been made clear is that what is being considered here is a proportionate approach, whereby people can still meet—obviously, in groups of up to 10—to practise their religion in a normal way. They can also, of course, use online tools, as are being used by many churches and mosques and other religious faiths. And, of course, if they are appropriately social distancing, people can use freedom of expression in public places too.

💬 Simon O’Connor: In light of proportionality, is the Minister aware that strip clubs are allowed to open during alert level 2 but churches are not, and, if so, why is one deemed so much safer than the other?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I think the member will understand—[Interruption]

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! Please, I don’t want to show any personal interest in the answer to this, but I would like to hear it.

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I think the member will understand—both he and I are people that have interacted with churches; that I know—that people often attend services of worship for fellowship reasons. They are there to worship; they are also there to mix and mingle with others.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: What are they at the strip club for?

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! I don’t expect that to be answered.

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: The purpose of having rules around gatherings—places people gather to intermingle—is precisely to ensure that we are keeping the space for people, the appropriate social distance, and keeping the virus out. In commercial premises, there will be requirements on people, of course, to make sure that different groups are not mingling together. That is a different purpose that people go to restaurants and clubs and pubs for, and that is the issue at hand here. I think the member will understand that I have no desire to keep people from engaging in their religious freedoms any longer than is necessary, but I also know that all New Zealanders do not want to see us go back to a previous level. All New Zealanders want to bank the hard work and sacrifices they have made, and that is why we want to keep moving forward, and slowly but surely, in a safe way, make sure that we are opening our economy and doing so in a safe way.

💬 Simon O’Connor: Can the Minister advise the House whether receiving bread and wine as communion at church will mean that it could be classified as a restaurant and therefore allow 100 attendees, or should it remain a church and be restricted to 10.

💬 SPEAKER: No. Order! Order! I consider that ironic, and some people would find it offensive.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: Can the Minister confirm that faith-based organisations are persons conducting a business or undertaking under the Health and Safety at Work Act, and why does he not believe they can discharge their responsibilities under that legislation safely?

💬 SPEAKER: Order! That is not an issue for this Minister. The supplementaries have now all been used.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Just in respect of that question, it was the Minister himself that pointed out that the obligations on strip clubs were different from churches, and I was simply—perhaps I should not have inferred from that answer that he was referring to their obligations to provide a safe premise.

💬 SPEAKER: I think he was probably referring to the obligations under the various pieces of legislation that we are passing—or are before the House at the moment. He certainly, as the member is aware, is not responsible for workplace safety matters.