Oral Questions

1. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government’s statements and actions?

Yes, particularly the Government’s work to prevent and respond to COVID-19, including the announcement last week by Ministers Robertson and Nash to provide interest-free loans of up to $100,000 for a year to small businesses impacted by COVID-19, and the announcement by Minister Parker that we will fast track eligible development and infrastructure projects under the Resource Management Act to help get New Zealand moving again. The global pandemic is hitting every nation hard, and we are moving to cushion the blow for businesses and workers in this country.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: What is Treasury’s estimate of the number of New Zealanders that actually returned to work last week under level 3, as opposed to the 75 percent being technically available to return to work because restrictions had been eased?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: My recollection is the estimates, and I will put emphasis on that: the estimates were an additional 400,000 New Zealanders.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Does she accept estimates from ANZ economists that New Zealand’s economy will shrink by 10 percent this year, while Australia’s will fall by less than 5?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I’ve seen a range of estimates. Ultimately, though, what will be important are the final results coming out of both New Zealand and Australia, but you’ll understand why my focus is on getting the New Zealand response right, both the health response which, if we succeed, is the best way we can support our economy by recovering quicker. There are very few scenarios we can fall back on with previous global experience. In fact, we have to look back as far as the flu of 1918, but one of the learnings from that was that those countries that moved quickest and hardest to try and prevent the pandemic taking hold were also the economies that recovered the fastest.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: Did the Prime Minister also learn that the ANZ economist who was quoted on Q+A last night said that “the New Zealand / Australia recovery percentage speed would be about the same”?

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: She doesn’t do the economics.

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I’ve said, I heard a range of—

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: She doesn’t, I’m sorry.

💬 Hon Member: I’ll let her know!

💬 SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume her seat. I think the use of that pronoun back and forth is not that helpful, and I think it would be helpful if the interjections didn’t go back and forth through the answers. The Rt Hon Prime Minister, please start again.

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As the member will well know, my focus is on the New Zealand experience and making the right decision for New Zealanders.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Considering Australia and New Zealand have had almost identical health outcomes, why is she still imposing tougher restrictions on economic activity than Australia?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, as I’ve reiterated in this House multiple times, at the time that New Zealand took the decision it did to go into lockdown which, as I recall, that member supported a mere five weeks ago, we had an infection rate modelled by the likes of Rodney Jones of five—that was higher than Australia. We have a different population base, but also, even the health professionals within Australia reference the fact that there is more in common with our response than there are differences. As members in the House well know, I’ve been in fairly frequent dialogue with the leadership in Australia, and there are a lot of similarities with our approach. Each of us is now looking at removing restrictions and the phased approach in order to do that.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Rather than making a decision at the start of lockdown and then leaving it, shouldn’t the Prime Minister make a new decision every single day about how she can safely get more businesses back to business, saving jobs and livelihoods in this country?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I’d love to see the member’s evidence that that’s not exactly what we are doing. We make decisions every day to look after people’s lives and their livelihoods. What the member needs to remember, of course, is that we cannot get ahead of ourselves. We need to lock in all of the results we’ve had to date, we do have cycles of transmission with this virus we have to take into account, and we are listening to the evidence, the research, and the best available advice to make our decisions, which is in the best interests of our economy as well.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Well, in light of that answer, is she telling the House that she may well bring forward the decision about whether to move to level 2 from Monday and it could, in fact, be made this week?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I also said in the answer I just gave, if the member was listening, we have to look at the cycle of transmission. Making a decision today, based on a number today, is a reflection of level 4, not about where we are right now. That member may have the luxury of sitting on that side of the House, not bearing the consequences of a wrong move, but we do not. We have to factor in the livelihoods of every New Zealander.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: What does she say to the business owner who emailed me to say, “We have a business in Australia as well as our New Zealand business. Our Australian business is pumping, sales for March were well ahead of last year. Contrast that with our New Zealand business: close to zero both March and April. I don’t think the Government have any idea how bad things are going to get over here.”

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, I hope that is a business, therefore, that accessed the more than $10 billion we’ve put into the wage subsidy to support those businesses.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Does she accept New Zealand’s more extreme economic lockdown—

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: It’s just a complete misunderstanding of how it works.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Mr Brownlee.

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: Well, I don’t want to be pinged across the House.

💬 SPEAKER: I think the Leader of the Opposition doesn’t need your assistance.

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: No, he certainly doesn’t—and nor your intervention.

💬 SPEAKER: Mr Brownlee, I’ve been trying to be quite flexible during this period with people who are breaching the rules as to interjections. It is just not helpful when he interjects over the top of his leader’s question. Mr Bridges.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Does she accept New Zealand’s more extreme economic lockdown is why the IMF predicts New Zealand’s unemployment rate will rise by 5.1 percent this year, compared to just 2.4 in Australia?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, the member’s assessment is premature. If he looks at even some of the decisions recently from credit rating agencies, for instance, they are talking about the resilience in the New Zealand economy, and, of course, time will continue to tell. But I am confident that, based on the investment we put in early—which included things like our wage subsidy, which went out the door faster than Australia’s support—including our interventions to support businesses through IRD, including the small business loan scheme, and our focus on getting back to a level of normality and for businesses to operate as soon as possible, that will then bear out in the results we have. It is simply premature to make comparisons. The final point I’ll make is, having spoken to my Australian counterparts, they have more in common with our approach than the member describes.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Is her Government taking into account the fact that there have been 1,000 job losses a day so far under lockdown in its decision about whether to move out of level 3 next week?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Of course we take into account economic impacts. We also take into account the economic impact of yo-yoing between levels and further outbreaks.

Question No. 2—Finance

2. to the Minister of Finance: What advice, if any, beyond the economic scenarios published on 14 April 2020, has he received from Treasury during the COVID-19 health and economic crisis?

As the member might imagine, I have received a considerable amount of advice from the Treasury on a wide range of matters during the time period that he specifies. This includes advice on the many announcements that the Government has made, including advice on the wage subsidy scheme developed with the business community to protect jobs and incomes and keep businesses and workers connected during the lockdown; advice on the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme to boost cash flow and help viable businesses with costs like rent, which has been welcomed by the business community; advice on the business finance guarantee scheme, a partnership between the Government and banks to get working capital out to business; and advice on the largest business tax support package in modern New Zealand history to support cash flow, encourage investment, and make it easier for businesses to manage their tax obligations during the crisis.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Why has none of this advice been released?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Decisions around the release of the advice have been taken under the normal rules that we have, and I’m sure, in time, the member will receive it.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Does the Minister think this is in any way a normal situation where the normal rules of disclosure apply?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As the member knows, I’ve realised the situation we’re in. I’ve come to the Epidemic Response Committee on the occasions that I’ve been invited, I have provided information to that, and, as I say, I’m sure the material the member wants will be released in due course.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Why does he not trust New Zealanders with this information now?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I do trust New Zealanders.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: What was the nature of Treasury’s advice on the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme, mistakenly enacted last Thursday?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I reject the premise of the member’s question. This is a scheme that has been worked on for some time—including advice from the Treasury about how to best assist small businesses—in addition to the wage subsidy scheme. It’s a scheme that’s been widely welcomed by people in the small-business sector as one that will get money into their pockets and help with cash flow.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: How could he possibly dispute the fact that the loan scheme was mistakenly enacted last Thursday?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The loan scheme was intended to be announced this week. It ended up in a piece of legislation that, I believe, will be the subject of a later question on the Order Paper today. That was the outline. The framework of it—the loan scheme itself—is something we’re very proud of, and it’s something that New Zealanders and New Zealand businesses will benefit from significantly.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Based on the advice he’s received, what’s the best estimate from Treasury of what the lockdown is costing the New Zealand economy each week?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well, as I think the member will be aware, the Treasury has done its scenarios, which show the significant impact on the economy. As we’ve been discussing today, in level 3, we’re operating at about 75 percent output. On a per day basis, I’ll have to get back to the member.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Well, isn’t the figure of $1.4 billion a week, based on the Treasury scenario of level 3—dropping 25 percent—burnt on his brain and keeping him awake at night?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I find myself, after working, like most members of this House are at the moment, about 18 hours a day, that, when I do get to bed, I sleep relatively well, and then, when I get up in the morning, I work every minute of the day to make sure that New Zealand households and businesses get through this crisis and flourish at the other end.

Question No. 3—Māori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti

3. to the Minister for Māori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti: What actions has he taken to assist Māori in helping to keep communities safe from COVID-19?

Before the country headed into level 4, we announced a $56.5 million Māori response package to assist Māori in their fight against the spread of COVID-19. Māori were quick to activate their network and deliver practical support in the early stages of our fight against COVID-19. Their response was immediate, and we as a Government worked with Māori to ensure the resources and funding announced in our Māori response package helped them in all the work they were undertaking. I’d like to thank iwi up and down the country for their hard work, for their cooperation, and for their future efforts as we move through these unprecedented times.

💬 Kiritapu Allan: What did the Māori response package funding deliver to Māori?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: This package was able to support 43 Māori groups and iwi to develop their own pandemic response plans. It delivered business support and advice to 632 businesses, it enabled 2,029 interactions with Māori business via an 0800 number, it provided extra funding to Māori health providers and Māori-led testing stations, and it helped Māori to resource volunteers to reach out to our most vulnerable and isolated communities, and in particular our kaumātua and kuia.

💬 Kiritapu Allan: How did this funding provide support for vulnerable Māori whānau across Aotearoa?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: This funding helps support some of our most vulnerable communities, in particular kaumātua and kuia and those in isolated areas. Part of the package was to boost the work of Whānau Ora commissioning agencies, who, because of the Māori response package, were able to deliver close to 120,000 care packages to vulnerable whānau, and over 64,000 whānau members have received support through commissioning agencies. This proves that, when Māori and the Crown work in partnership, we can successfully deliver to Māori across the country.

Question No. 4—Tourism

4. to the Minister of Tourism: What action, if any, will he take this week to save businesses and jobs in the tourism sector?

This week, like every week since this Government has been responding to COVID-19, we will continue to support tourism businesses through our Economic Response Package, which includes wage subsidy assistance, the business finance guarantee scheme, changes in tax provisions, as well as the tax loss carry-back scheme, the Small Business Cashflow Loan Scheme, changes to the tax loss continuity rules, and further business consultancy support.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Thank you. Will he confirm today that wage subsidies will be extended for tourism businesses—who this week face laying off staff—so that these New Zealanders can keep their jobs?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: In consultation with the tourism sector that is one of the—they would like certainty around the wage subsidy scheme. Those sorts of decisions will be made by the appropriate Ministers at the appropriate time. The wage subsidy scheme—the Minister of Finance was the architect of that. It’s not a decision that the Minister of Tourism makes by himself.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Will he today confirm that tourism businesses will receive cash-flow grants rather than Government debt, so they have certainty and Kiwis can keep their jobs?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: I’ve already rattled through a list of things that tourism businesses can access, and to just expand on that a bit further, there is up to $12 billion in wage subsidies so that affected businesses can keep their staff. There is $2.8 billion in business tax changes to reduce cash-flow pressure, including provisional tax threshold lift, the reinstatement of building depreciation, and writing off interest on late payment of tax. There is an initial $600 million package to help the aviation sector. There is a $6.25 billion business finance guarantee scheme for small and medium sized businesses. There is further support for small to medium sized enterprises, including the $3.1 billion tax loss carry-back scheme; as I’ve said, changes to the tax loss continuity rules; further business consultancy support; and there is greater flexibility for affected businesses to meet their tax obligations. The Government has done a heck of a lot to help businesses, not just tourism businesses.

💬 Kiritapu Allan: How is he ensuring that the tourism sector is involved in his work to respond and restart the industry in a post-COVID world?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: As the Minister, I’ve hosted a webinar. By the end of this week, we should have been in touch with over 3,000 people from the tourism industry: tourism operators and businesses. I’ll continue to host multiple regional webinars every week, where each webinar involves about 150-plus tourism operators. Tourism New Zealand is also engaging in one-on-one contact with industry players, to ensure everyone gets a chance to be part of the restart of our tourism industry in a post-COVID New Zealand.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Will he tell tourism businesses today what restrictions they will face under level 2, and whether New Zealanders will be able to travel domestically so these businesses can this week make decisions to save jobs?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: Well, again, if the member waits until Thursday, then a lot will be revealed. But the thing is, tourism operators have said to me that they want certainty around the wage subsidy scheme, they want restrictions on domestic travel lifted, and they would like a trans-Tasman bubble to be created. But the thing is that all of those decisions are made by other Ministers, whereas I have input—and represent the interests of the tourism industry—on behalf of the tourism industry. But one thing I will not do is stand up and undermine my fellow Ministers by talking out of turn on areas that impact their portfolios.

💬 Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern: Can the Minister confirm that on the last opportunity that myself—as Prime Minister—had to sit with tourism operators in Rotorua, they highlighted the importance of a successful campaign against COVID being part of their recovery, so that people can look to New Zealand both from a tourism perspective in the future, but also from a trade perspective, with confidence in our response?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: That’s right. Do it once and do it right. We know that the best thing for our economy is to stamp out COVID-19, and not to risk going up and down between levels. That would be the worst thing ever for not just tourism but the whole economy.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Will he give certainty to the tourism sector today about when his Government hopes to open the trans-Tasman border and under what conditions, so these businesses can keep people in work and save jobs?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: I have it on good authority that the Australian Cabinet are still meeting about this very issue. And, again, if we’re talking about lifting border restrictions, we need to talk to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Immigration, the Minister of Customs, and, certainly, the Minister of Health. I represent the interests of the tourism sector, and I make sure that my colleagues know exactly what the tourism sector wants. We’re heading in the right direction, and that is the best thing that we can do.

Question No. 5—Social Development

5. to the Minister for Social Development: What action is she taking, if any, to support the more than 1,000 people who have lost their jobs and gone onto jobseeker support each day since the lockdown?

on behalf of the Minister for Social Development: On behalf of the Minister for Social Development, supporting people into work has always been part of this Government’s agenda, which is why at last year’s Budget, we announced an investment into 263 new work-focused case managers. We acted in early March, establishing rapid response teams to support redeployment activities all across Ministry of Social Development regions. This has continued through the lockdown. We established the wage subsidy scheme and leave support schemes that have supported over 1.7 million Kiwis to stay connected to their employers. Last week, I announced a range of initiatives to keep New Zealand working, including an online recruitment tool. We have 35 new employment centres that are up and running, and operating virtually, to work with employers and clients to support accelerated redeployment.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: How many applications for jobseeker support have there been since the start of alert level 4, and how many have been declined?

In reference to the second part of the question, I don’t have that information with me around declines. What I can say from publicly available information to the member is that it is around the 30,000 mark of additional people on the jobseeker support.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Does she have any estimates of how many people have lost their job since the start of alert level 4 but were not eligible for jobseeker support?

The member would need to put a specific question like that down in writing.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Does she believe that the 1,000 people going on jobseeker support each day has peaked, or will this number increase when the wage subsidy ends in a month?

Our forecasts around what will happen with New Zealand’s unemployment rate have been provided by a large number of people. As with other countries in the world, there is an expectation that we are facing a period of significant economic downturn. The Government is and will continue to do everything in our power to limit the number of people who find themselves in need of jobseeker support.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: What recent reports has she read, if any, on the social and health impacts of unemployment, and what actions is she taking to reduce this harm?

On behalf of the Minister, I’m not sure exactly what reports the Minister will have read around the health impacts of unemployment, but it’s certainly an issue that the Minister and this Government are very well aware of. It’s why we have worked so hard to reduce unemployment in New Zealand, taking it down to its lowest levels in a decade in the period leading up to COVID-19, and we’ll continue to take that approach of prioritising reducing unemployment and hope to continue the success that we’ve had with that up until COVID-19.

Question No. 6—Finance

6. to the Minister of Finance: What actions has the Government taken to support businesses and households to respond to COVID-19?

The Government’s ability to support businesses and households is backed by our actions to ensure a strong underlying economic base for the New Zealand economy and our strong fiscal position going into COVID-19. Standard & Poor’s yesterday held New Zealand’s credit rating at AA+ with a positive outlook because of the Government’s low debt relative to the rest of the world and the economy’s underlying strength. This has allowed the Government to go hard and early in our economic response to COVID-19 to match our health response. This has been led by the $10.7 billion wage subsidy scheme, supporting more than 1.7 million workers; the business finance guarantee scheme, the largest business tax support package in modern New Zealand history; and further measures announced last week to support small businesses with cash-flow operating costs.

💬 Ginny Andersen: What actions is the Government taking to support small businesses through COVID-19?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: On Friday, the Government announced the Small Business Cashflow Loan Scheme to provide graduated loans of up to $100,000 to viable businesses with 50 or fewer employees to give them access to cash flow to meet fixed costs such as rent. The scheme will provide $10,000 to each eligible firm, and, in addition, $1,800 per equivalent full-time employee. The interest rate will be 3 percent for a maximum of five years, with repayments not required for the first two years. The loans will be interest free if they are repaid within the first year. IRD will have the scheme up and running by 12 May to start accepting applications, and we expect the first lending decisions to be made about 48 hours after applications are received.

💬 Ginny Andersen: What reports has he seen of reactions to the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Many. Employers and Manufacturers Association chief executive, Brett O’Riley, said his members would welcome the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme. He said the terms of the scheme are very similar to the Canadian approach, which we and other members of the Business New Zealand network encouraged the Government to look at. “We thank the Minister of Finance, Grant Robertson, for this response.” I’ve also received letters of support and emails from a number of other small businesses and, indeed, the Mayor of the Queenstown Lakes District Council, Jim Boult, on behalf of the businesses in Queenstown. This scheme has been welcomed.

💬 Jami-Lee Ross: Will the Government further support businesses and households by legislating for a rates freeze for the 2020-21 local government rating year; if not, why not?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: That is not the intention of the Government.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: Has the Minister had regard to a more recently announced scheme, in the last 24 hours, where businesses will not be able to qualify unless they can prove they’ve had a 50 percent loss?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I’ve seen a number of ideas proposed in recent times. One of the things that are important in these situations is to have consistency. I certainly know that, in the case of the people proposing that scheme, last week they were describing our scheme as both too loose and too restrictive within hours of each other. Mr Goldsmith and Mr McClay should have a chat with one another.

💬 Jami-Lee Ross: Why is the Government not considering providing relief to businesses and households by legislating for a rates freeze?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: We believe that local government needs to make its own decisions about the level of rates that it’s charging at this time. Many of them have responsibilities to co-fund projects that are important to productivity and creating jobs. I’m sure that each local government authority will think very carefully about the level of rates that they charge in this environment.

Question No. 7—Health

7. to the Associate Minister of Health: Does she agree with Dr Ashley Bloomfield that “all New Zealanders are now able to get a flu jab”?

Yes. On Monday, 27 March, the prioritisation criteria that the Government had put in place to ensure our most vulnerable were able to get their flu vaccine was lifted. This means that all New Zealanders are now eligible to ring their GP or pharmacist and make an appointment to get vaccinated. In previous years, there was never a prioritisation system put in place, so this year, we acted early to ensure that the most at-risk New Zealanders had a head start on getting their flu vaccine in this unprecedented time of a global pandemic.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: How does that align with her statement this Saturday that “not every New Zealander will get a flu vaccine”?

💬 Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: Well, as we have maintained the entire time, we have a record number of flu vaccines this year: that’s 1.768 million. He will realise that that is less than the population of New Zealand. None the less, in previous years one out of four New Zealanders got a flu vaccine; this year, we’re on track for more than one out of three. We already have record numbers of people over the age of 65 having been vaccinated—that’s on the Nation Immunisation Register (NIR)—more Māori over the age of 65 have been vaccinated than in any previous year, and that’s with us only having the records of about 770,000 vaccines. So there is still yet a million vaccines to either be administered or for the records to come through.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: What does she say, then, to New Zealanders who may eventually miss out on a flu vaccine because there are not enough?

💬 Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: I would say that there’s very low risk of flu this year. The flu tracker is showing us that we have record low levels of the flu, due to the borders being closed. In all of the precautions that we are taking to prevent the spread of COVID-19, we are also preventing the spread of the flu. We have already vaccinated record numbers of vulnerable people. So I think the clinical outcome of this year’s flu vaccine is excellent, and I want to thank all those hard-working GPs, nurses, and pharmacists who have been vaccinating people at twice the rate of last year—an excellent outcome.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: Why is this the second winter in a row, under her watch, when the front line have had no flu vaccines when they needed them?

💬 Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: I’m really not sure what the member’s referring to. This is actually the first year that I’ve had the delegation for this, firstly. But, secondly, I believe that some GPs are running low, and that is because they are vaccinating people at twice the rate of last year. Also, we’re in the midst of a global pandemic with unprecedented travel restrictions, both internationally and nationally, and that has led to some distribution issues. But everybody is working as hard as they possibly can. The clinical outcome, so far, is so good that I think GPs, nurses, and pharmacists are going to look back on the outcome of this year and the record numbers of vulnerable people who were vaccinated and say that this was a very big clinical success.

💬 Dr Shane Reti: When people look back, will it be the same distribution issue she has mentioned now as the distribution issue she quoted for the flu vaccine last year and the measles vaccine?

💬 Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: I think that the circumstances that we’re facing right now with a global pandemic and a 90 percent reduction in international travel, and significant reductions in inter-regional travel here in New Zealand, are not comparable to issues that we’ve previously had with vaccines, no. But I will come back to: the outcome is very good because GPs have actually been vaccinating people at twice the rate they had last year, they have had significant supplies, they’ve administered them to record numbers of New Zealanders, and we still have a million vaccines to either be administered or to be entered for the records to come through in the NIR.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to table an email from my own Nelson Marlborough DHB, received today, saying they have run out of flu vaccinations.

💬 SPEAKER: Is there any objection to that occurring? There is none.

Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.

Question No. 8—Education

8. to the Minister of Education: What actions has the Government taken to ensure that students in need can access support to learn online in tertiary education?

The Government announced over the weekend $20 million for technology access for tertiary students so that we can make digital devices and internet connections available for students who do not otherwise have those in their homes. While online learning is being undertaken by tertiary organisations in response to COVID-19, many students don’t have access to the appropriate devices or the appropriate internet connections to enable them to undertake technology-enabled learning. Many students still go on to the campus in order to access equipment to learn. Since the country moved into lockdown, officials have worked with the tertiary institutes to identify the number of students—[Interruption]

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! Look, I apologise to the member, and with my previous history I’m reluctant to say it, but if members want to do something like that, they should take it outside. Chris Hipkins, continue.

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: When the country moved into lockdown, officials worked with tertiary institutes to identify the number of students who they thought didn’t have access to the right devices and didn’t have broadband internet. So the $20 million fund is part of our overall response, which, of course, includes $87.7 million that the Government is funding across schools and early learning services for devices, connections, and hard packs of materials.

💬 Kieran McAnulty: How many learners were identified as needing support for digital devices and technology?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: The work undertaken by the institutions identified that around 11,150 learners at tertiary organisations probably don’t have appropriate devices to engage in technology-enabled learning, while a slightly higher number—11,350—don’t have access to broadband at home. The package that we are funding provides for devices and internet connections for up to 18,500 learners.

💬 Kieran McAnulty: How will this money be distributed to universities, private training establishments (PTEs), polytechnics, and wānanga?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: In the first instance, half of the fund is being allocated to tertiary organisations on the basis of the number of learners that they have, with a particular weighting to priority learners. For example, the New Zealand Institute of Skills and Technology has been allocated $2.3 million to start purchasing devices and connections. The second half of the fund will be available on application from organisations.

💬 Kieran McAnulty: How will students be selected for support for devices and internet connections from the universities, wānanga, PTEs, and polytechnics?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: We want to make it as easy as possible to get these resources to the students that need them, and we want to enable institutions to use their existing supply chains where possible, so the funding is being allocated to the institutions, and the students that need them should speak to their university, wānanga, PTE, or polytech in the first instance.

💬 Hon Nikki Kaye: How does that support students that are currently locked out of their accommodation, paying bills to their tertiary providers? How are they going to benefit from that online learning?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Well, if the accommodation that they are in does not have broadband access or does not have a device that they can use to access the internet and to access online learning, then they will be able to do that. With regard to the institutions continuing to charge rent for rooms that students are unable to occupy, I’ve been very clear around my expectations on that. Those organisations that are accessing the wage subsidy should not be charging full rent to the students for rooms that they cannot use. The universities in particular have a very healthy balance sheet position, which means that they do not need to take some of the measures that they are taking now, and I expect them to behave responsibly and with a degree of compassion towards their learners.

Question No. 9—Revenue

9. to the Minister of Revenue: Did he know that the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme was in the COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Other Regulatory Urgent Measures) Bill that was introduced to Parliament on Thursday, 30 April; if so, why didn’t he notify the Opposition that the scheme was not in the bill supplied to them that morning?

on behalf of the Minister of Revenue: No. The Government had directed that the bill be divided into two, with the small business loan scheme to be progressed through a separate subsequent bill. A miscommunication between the IRD and the Parliamentary Counsel Office resulted in an earlier version of the bill being tabled. I was not made aware of the error until after the House had concluded its business for the day. I regret that the version of the bill supplied to the Opposition differed to the one that was tabled. The Leader of the House has received an apology from the Chief Parliamentary Counsel for the error, and I seek leave for that letter to now be tabled.

💬 SPEAKER: Is there any objection to that occurring? There appears to be none.

Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: Has he had discussions with the Leader of the House that would lead to any bills that might be coming into the House next week in his name being provided to the Opposition ahead of them being tabled in the House so that there can be no confusion about what is in them and what their purpose is?

Yes, there have been several conversations between myself as the Minister of Revenue and the Leader of the House around expectations around this. Also, there have been conversations between the Leader of the House and the Chief Parliamentary Counsel around how to ensure that this sort of error can never happen again in the future, and the Chief Parliamentary Counsel has initiated an independent review to ensure that the process is tightened up.

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: The question was: will the Minister, if he has bills coming into the House next week in his name, make those bills available to the Opposition ahead of time or, ahead of them being tabled, in a more timely fashion so that there can be no doubt about the purpose of the bills that are being put in front of the Parliament?

The shorter answer to that question is yes, and that is what the Government endeavoured to do last week. The copy of the bill that had been approved by Ministers for introduction was supplied to the Opposition. The Parliamentary Counsel Office introduced a different version of the bill.

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: Can we take it from the Minister’s answer that there will be no taxation bills in the urgency motion next week?

No.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: That said, is it the job of the Opposition to oppose and propose, to forensically examine bills before Parliament—

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: —and that democracy only works—

💬 SPEAKER: A point of order—[Interruption] Order!

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: Sit down.

💬 SPEAKER: No, don’t tell me to do that. The member will be in real trouble. A point of order, the Hon Gerry Brownlee.

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: Well, Mr Speaker, I think it’s pretty clear where this question is going, and so I just want to make it clear that we do understand what the role of the Opposition is, but the—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Now the member will resume his seat. I was giving the right honourable gentleman a chance to get his question into order. It seemed to me the further it went along, the further away he got from it. I’m not going to give him another shot. We’re just going to move on.

Question No. 10—Justice

10. to the Minister of Justice: Does he stand by all his policies and priorities?

I stand by all the policies and priorities of the Government.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Why is the Government rushing his legislation to extend voting rights for prisoners during a national emergency when the Government stated at the beginning of lockdown—and I quote—“All parliamentary business before select committees that is not COVID-related will be suspended.”?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: The bill to which the member refers is in the hands of the Justice Committee. It is not a matter over which I have any control; it is a bill that is in the control of the select committee.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: How can the Minister say he has no control of the bill before the select committee, when for the other two bills before the Justice Committee, one on sexual violence and one on first responders, the Minister has written to the Business Committee seeking an extension of time; and is it the Government’s priorities that prisoners’ rights are ahead of those of victims of sexual violence or first responders?

💬 Hon Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There has to be a factual inaccuracy in the assertion made in that question. Ministers do not write to the Business Committee seeking extensions for bills; select committees write to the Business Committee seeking extensions.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Speaking to the point of order, the Standing Orders of the House are that the member in charge of the bill can advise the Business Committee as to whether they approve the extension. In the case of the sexual violence legislation before the Justice Committee, the Minister has—

💬 SPEAKER: All right, OK—I get the member’s point. Unfortunately, the way he expressed his question didn’t quite get there. I am going to give him another shot at getting the question accurate.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Why has the Minister written to the Business Committee approving an extension of time for other justice bills like the sexual violence legislation but not the prisoner voting legislation, when the prisoner voting legislation is on fast track and when the rights of rape victims should come ahead of the rights of prisoners?

💬 SPEAKER: OK, I’ll let the member answer the question, and I will just get it in order by saying “indicating support for” rather than “approving”.

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: Again, any correspondence I’ve had with the Business Committee is in relation to a request by the chair of the select committee and is not a matter over which I assert any control.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Does the Minister agree with Professor Andrew Geddis of Otago University that his bill, in clause 8—and I quote—“gives prisoners more electoral rights than other citizens.”; if so, is it Government policy that convicted criminals have greater rights than victims—

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. For the second time, this member’s asked two questions, not one, and he’s about to do it again.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, I accept that the member has very long phrases that make up his questions, but he’s so far in order. I’ll ask Dr Nick Smith to start again.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Does the Minister agree with Professor Andrew Geddis of Otago University that his bill, in clause 8, “gives prisoners more electoral rights than other citizens.”; if so, is it Government policy that convicted criminals have greater rights than victims of crime or law-abiding citizens?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: In answer to the second part of the question, no.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Can the Minister confirm that he has written to the Justice Committee stating that officials will not be able to provide full answers to the committee’s questions or a comprehensive departmental report on the bill, and, if so, why would we continue to rush such legislation?

💬 SPEAKER: No, well, that is out of order.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Can the Minister assure the House that the Justice Committee will have access to a comprehensive report from his ministry and that the ministry will be able to answer all of the committee’s questions thoroughly?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: As far as I know, that is exactly what ministry officials are providing to that committee.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The answer that the Minister has just given contradicts the letter that he has written to the select committee.

💬 SPEAKER: Dr Smith, you are the most senior member of the House—well, the one with the most experience, anyway.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: No, he’s not.

💬 SPEAKER: No, he’s not that either? All right, OK—he’s the father of the House, let’s put it that way. [Interruption] The member has a question; if he wants to ask it, he’ll just zip it up. Dr Smith—the member has been here for a long time and he should know what assertions he can and can’t make by way of point of order, and the fact that he disagrees with an answer is certainly not a reason for a point of order. If we had that, we’d have one of those on just about every supplementary answer in the House.

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: I appreciate your ruling and just seek advice: if the substance of that question was prefaced with “has”, would that put it in order, because it seems to me we’re getting into some pretty pedantic sort of space? We’re in unusual times. The Opposition has agreed to truncated versions of Parliament because it’s the right thing to do at the moment, but on the basis that the business-as-usual sort of stuff would be pushed off until a later time—and probably facilitated at that later time. But in this case, clearly there is a hell-bent desire by someone to get this piece of legislation through. It’s not unreasonable to question whether or not that is actually being driven by the Minister, and a question “Has he written”—would that stand as opposed to the question that was asked by Dr Smith?

💬 SPEAKER: Well, I didn’t rule out the question in that particular case that was asked. What I said was that I wasn’t saying that the member has to be happy with the answer, and taking a point of order to say that he disagrees with the answer—it didn’t matter really what the question was, because the question was ruled in. To say that the member was unhappy with the answer is not the case. If there is an allegation that the Minister was inaccurate, and deliberately so, the member knows how that should be taken up. If the member has other evidence that he thinks contradicts it and would cause the Minister to correct his answer, then he could be kind enough either to pass it to the Minister or to table it in the House, and that way it would put more pressure on the Minister to correct his answer, if, in fact, it was inaccurate.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I seek leave of the House to table the Minister of Justice’s letter to the Justice Committee saying that justice officials would not be able to provide complete answers or the normal standard of departmental report.

💬 SPEAKER: Is there any objection to that? There is.

💬 Hon Chris Hipkins: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can the Minister confirm that the bill does little more than reverse a law change passed by the previous Government with the narrowest of margins in the House?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: That is precisely what the bill does, and it is a bill that has also been the subject of questions and submissions made to that committee in the last two years under different types of legislation that could’ve touched on that question. The issues that are in the bill are not new to the current makeup of the Justice Committee.

💬 Hon Dr Nick Smith: Can the Minister confirm that clause 8 of the bill before the select committee, that Professor Andrew Geddis has not only pointed out is new but confers on prisoners rights that victims and other citizens do not have, has never been on the law books of New Zealand before—clause 8?

💬 Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I understand that the committee has received submissions and, indeed, advice from officials to that effect. That has never been the intention of the Government, but it is in the hands of that committee to make a change to make sure that the provision of that clause is consistent with the rights that every other citizen has, and I eagerly await the unanimous recommendations of that committee to that effect.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: Is it not a fact, with respect to that last question, that until 2011, that was the extant situation on the law, supported by Holyoake, Marshall, Muldoon, and, dare I say it, Jim Bolger and others, and then all of a sudden it changed? So Professor Geddis is profoundly wrong.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! This member has responsibility neither for Professor Geddis or history.

Question No. 11—Regional Economic Development

11. to the Minister for Regional Economic Development: What recent announcements has he made regarding regional economic development?

The dispenser of the provincial panacea has the following to say: during the COVID alert period 4, phase 4, great work took place to recalibrate and repurpose the Provincial Growth Fund (PGF). I can announce, as of today—because digital connectivity is incredibly important and many areas in New Zealand were left neglected in a former period of nine years—places including Murupara, Gisborne, Katikati, will now enjoy the presence of five new digital hubs. In addition to that, last week, over $439 million worth of investment in 60 PGF projects began to work in earnest after moving into level 3. That is evidence that this Government is quick on the fiscal trigger. We have also seen iconic projects that were neglected, unfortunately, but brought to life by the Provincial Growth Fund in the form of the Hundertwasser Art Centre, the Taranaki Crossing, and the Westport Airport seawall—places in those areas of New Zealand that have suffered far too much neglect in the period of time of the former regime.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: How will he ensure that progress on projects happens quickly during the post - COVID-19 recovery?

💬 Hon SHANE JONES: I’m incredibly pleased to have worked with my colleague Mr David Parker and his announcements to fast track a consenting process so that projects crucial to the recovery will not be subjected to undue delay through Resource Management Act (RMA) processes. This lays bare the extent of the former Government’s failure to reform the RMA—instead, leaving us with a type of bureaucratic voodoo. It has fallen to this particular group of Ministers to do what the former regime could not do. This is incredibly important, because jobs are very important.

💬 Hon Paula Bennett: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There is a general debate tomorrow, and I think that is the time for Ministers to make speeches. These answers are incredibly long.

💬 SPEAKER: The member is absolutely right. They are incredibly long. But, tangentially, they are relevant, and I will remind the member, as she knows—because she’s been around here a while—that responsibility for the interruption on the length of answers is mine and not hers and not to be raised by way of point of order.

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.

💬 SPEAKER: Oh, Mr Brownlee—the Hon Mr Brownlee!

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would have thought, sir, that you might have had a greater interest in the answers from Ministers being more forward focused than the jaundiced history that’s constantly presented to the House—

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: He’s obsessed with us.

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: —by the Hon Shane Jones. Now, his own fixation on the past is interesting. It does reflect in most of his policies. But, in essence, at the present time, where the country is facing significant economic challenge, as well as the health challenge that New Zealanders have so well risen to, it would be appropriate, I think, that you did require that he speaks more to the future than to the past.

💬 SPEAKER: I want to thank members for their advice and to say that the Leader of the Opposition’s interjection during his colleague’s point of order probably made up for what happened earlier in the day. I will listen very carefully to the answers, but I will say to the member that I thought his point of order was something which was approaching something the Hon Paula Bennett was suggesting earlier. It was more a contribution to a debate rather than a serious point of order.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: Is the Minister saying that having been wrongly blamed for nine long years of non-reform of the RMA, he took that experience to collegially work with the Hon David Parker to get dramatic change right here and right now?

💬 Hon SHANE JONES: In the very short term, the RMA will be reformed. In a very short period of time, projects will proceed with alacrity, because jobs are essential. Bureaucratic entanglement is something that the future does not find a place for that type of activity, which is why, as the provincial champion, my colleagues on the other side of the House will find great worthiness in this transformational initiative which I’m championing.

💬 Hon Judith Collins: Does the Minister, looking back to the past, remember how many times New Zealand First supported any amendments to the RMA in the last nine years?

💬 SPEAKER: Order! I think the member’s probably the most experienced member of the front bench of the Opposition, and she knows that that question is out of order.

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: Given his very bold claims in the House today, can he assure the House that the Government has the numbers to pass the provisions that he’s so boldly claiming will make such a difference?

💬 Hon SHANE JONES: We are such a collegial crowd on our side of the House.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: With respect to the last question, did he hear Morning Report and the effusive support from the National Party for this dynamic legislation? That being the case, how will he assist the COVID-19 economic recovery being balanced and resolved to meet the changes faced by the long hitherto neglected regions?

💬 Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Which one of those questions, on two different topics, is allowed to be answered by the Minister—completely different topics?

💬 SPEAKER: What I’m trying to work out, Mr Brownlee, is whether I should lift my standards or not in relation to the linking of legs of supplementary questions. I think that I tried to tighten up not very long ago and was subject to some pretty intense criticism from members not very far away from him. In this matter, my natural inclination is actually to agree with the member and to be very tight, but I want to say that if I do, there would have been at least 10 of today’s questions that would have been ruled out, and they all came from his side of the House. So I’m not going to rule that way now, but if the member wants to come back to me and say that it’s the view of the Opposition that the supplementary questioning should be tightened up with regard to relevance and the relationship with prior supplementary questions or prior answers, then I would be more than happy to oblige the Opposition.

💬 Hon SHANE JONES: In contrast to the other member, I shall demonstrate my verbal acrobatic skills. There is a serious drought, for example, affecting Northland. That is a simple example of one of the challenges the Government inherited, with poor outcomes with the water storage in those neglected parts of the country, which is why we are going to charge ahead and deal with the anxieties and the uncertainties as the primary sector generates more wealth in the post-COVID environment, marrying land to water, equalling greater prosperity.

Question No. 12—Health

12. to the Minister of Health: How has the rollout of new frontline mental health services been affected by COVID-19?

Despite disruptions caused by the global COVID-19 pandemic, work has continued on the roll-out of the free front-line mental health and addiction services funded through Budget 2019. By June next year, 1.5 million New Zealanders will have access to free mental health care at their GP or primary care outlet. This work is well under way, with more than 100 sites receiving a combined investment of $40 million in this roll-out. Rolling out such an ambitious new service requires an entirely new workforce. We’ve made sure not to lose momentum during the lockdown and have adapted the training so that it can be delivered virtually.

💬 Ginny Andersen: How has the provision of these services been affected by COVID-19?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I am pleased to report that services have continued to be delivered via phone and videoconferencing throughout alert levels 4 and 3, and, more broadly, mental health services have always been considered an essential service. Therefore, their provision has continued throughout all COVID-19 alert levels.

💬 Ginny Andersen: What other extra mental health support has the Government made available to New Zealanders feeling the effects of COVID-19?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: Many people across New Zealand will be feeling distress or anxiety about the future because of COVID-19. I want people to know that it is normal to feel this way in times of uncertainty and that there is a range of free support available. Over the past weeks, the Government has announced online information for parents, awareness campaigns, apps, e-therapy, and tools to help people maintain their mental wellbeing throughout this unusual time. These tools have been brought on stream quickly to complement a wider package of support such as face-to-face sessions and the 1737 number.