Oral Questions

1. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government’s statements and actions?

Yes, especially the package that was announced yesterday by this Government in response to the global pandemic of COVID-19, including the $12.1 billion package that is split between business certainty and continuity—making sure that consumers have enough money in their back pocket to keep the economy going but also that we look after older citizens—and, obviously, the half-billion dollar investment directly into health to support the response to COVID-19.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Does she still stand by her statement in the House yesterday that nobody displaying symptoms has been denied a COVID-19 test when Director-General of Health, Ashley Bloomfield, stated in the media yesterday that “There needs to be a reason why people are tested for COVID-19. This means along with symptoms of COVID-19 they should have either a history of travel or close contact with a possible case.”?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Both the Director-General of Health and myself stand by the case definition for testing of COVID-19, which is exactly both as the director-general described and also as I described yesterday, which adds the ability for a clinician to make that decision. I want to say this again very seriously to the member on the other side of the House: this is a time where New Zealanders need to know that this House—

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Don’t give me a lecture. I’m doing my job in the interests of New Zealand.

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: —is united. We are politicians, and it is not for us to determine—

💬 Hon Grant Robertson: They don’t think you’re doing your job.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order!

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: —when people are tested. It is for doctors to.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! I apologise for interrupting the Prime Minister, but the Minister of Finance should not engage, and I understand that the Leader of the Opposition and a couple of the members were also interjecting. But in his engagement, his volume was coming through the Prime Minister’s mike, and, frankly, it is a matter better not discussed in this House during this serious time.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Does she accept that GPs have received the clear message from Ashley Bloomfield to stick to the case definition for testing symptoms with a history of travel or close contact with a case, given the letter he sent to all GPs on Sunday, which stated, “I ask you to continue to apply the case definition when considering who you should test, and to use testing supplies and personal protective equipment with prudence.”?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I don’t think anyone would disagree with giving advice that applies some criteria to who is tested, because at a time like this, there will be people who have, for instance, cold symptoms that are unrelated to COVID-19 who simply won’t need a test. It is of course prudent that we allow clinicians—not politicians, not members of the public—to make that decision. My final point is that the best thing we can do is not create an environment where everyone who has a symptom that may be a cold or may be a flu believes they need to be tested for COVID-19. That is not responsible either. Yesterday, 620 tests were undertaken—620 tests. We are testing and, as you’ll see from those tests, those cases continue to be linked to overseas travel.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: In light of that answer, will she simply accept, then, that if it is simply symptoms and no other criteria as set out in the definition for testing, there will not be, automatically, testing in this country today?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: There has never been a situation where every single person who asks for a test would receive one, and nor would that be a responsible response. That is not what countries anywhere in the world are doing. That is not the way the World Health Organization is asking countries to respond, and nor should it be the way we are. I am listening to experts, clinicians, and doctors. I ask the member to do the same.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Isn’t it quite clear from both her answers and Ashley Bloomfield’s that we have a rationing of testing in New Zealand?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: No.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: Can I ask the Prime Minister: has there been universal support from the professional medical fraternity with respect to Ashley Bloomfield and the Prime Minister’s criterion on this matter?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I’ve read some of the writing on this by experts in the field, and there is absolute agreement with the approach that is being taken. I again want—

💬 Hon Member: It’s the Prime Minister’s criteria.

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: That is an outrageous suggestion. I again want to make clear to the other side of the House: this is a national issue. There is no politics in testing; there should only be expert clinician advice. I ask the member again: if you would like to receive a briefing on this, I am happy to provide it, but the member is becoming borderline irresponsible.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: In light of that last answer, what does she say to the half a dozen doctors who have contacted me by email and other means in the last 24 hours to express their frustration, given the difference between what she’s saying in this House and what Ashley Bloomfield and the Ministry of Health are quite clearly directing?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again, I ask the member to read for himself the case definition I advised in this House yesterday. Whilst, yes, it does set out specific circumstances, it then makes a note: given the changing global environment, if the clinician believes that they should be testing, then they are able to. But what we do not want to do for doctors is create a pressure environment where every person demands a test, regardless of whether or not there’s any likelihood of their symptoms even being COVID-19, when there isn’t a need for one.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Are media reports correct that until Monday, there had been an average of just 11 COVID-19 tests conducted a day?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I’ll do the same that I did with the journalist who asked that question: that was, I believe, an inaccurate way to display what’s happening with our testing. As you would expect, when New Zealand had no cases, there weren’t many tests. Over time, they have increased. We had 620 tests processed in one day yesterday.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Isn’t the reality that it’s not that there weren’t any cases; it’s simply that there wasn’t much, if any, testing?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I think the member will find that when there are no cases, it’s hard to spread, and therefore there is no rational reason to be testing everybody. Again, I ask the member not to listen to me if he does not choose to, but listen to the experts.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: What does she say to the 76-year-old Wellingtonian woman who got off a cruise ship and had symptoms but wasn’t tested this week because the GP said, “We’ve been told not to test unless we absolutely have to.”?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: She would’ve fallen within the criteria. Obviously, the doctor believed that there weren’t symptoms there that meant that they should. I am not going to second-guess a doctor, because that person would have fit within the case profile. Again, my final plea is to the member: think about the audience he is speaking to right now. This doesn’t have to be political.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Does she accept that it is my constitutional duty to ask her questions and try and get answers on the most significant issue this country has faced in many, many years?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I have been in that seat and I know the difference between responsible and political. [Interruption]

💬 SPEAKER: Order! Order! It ill behoves the Leader of the Opposition to react. As I’ve warned the Minister of Finance earlier, sometimes people have to take a deep breath when people are winding them up.

Question No. 2—Prime Minister

2. to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government’s statements and actions?

Yes.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: What does she say to the Hospitality New Zealand Central Otago president, who was “gutted” by the package announced yesterday and said it would not provide immediate relief to the industry?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I’d actually refer to some of the responses I saw, even just for those in hospitality here in Wellington. One operator, in quite an emotional response, said what a difference it would make for keeping on the staff that they had. We wanted to provide immediate relief—we’ve done that. We wanted to provide certainty—we’ve done that. I believe it’s getting a response that’s being broadly welcomed.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Speaking of Wellington, what does she say to the manager of a thousand staff in hospitality based in Wellington who told me just half an hour ago that if the Government doesn’t come to the party by the end of next week, he will have to shut down, with potentially all of his staff losing their jobs?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: We worked quickly, and the Ministry of Social Development—I want to acknowledge the incredible work they’ve done. They had the application available online yesterday, in line with the timing that we made the announcement. At that time, we were advised it would take between five and six days to turn around the applications, and that is still the time line that we are working to.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: What does she say to the large Auckland retailer who employs a hundred staff who will have to lay off a third of them this week and reduce hours across all staff, noting that the $150,000 cap on job support from yesterday’s package doesn’t remotely cover all of their staff?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As we said yesterday, the vast majority of businesses in New Zealand are small to medium sized enterprises, so this will cover 97 percent of businesses in New Zealand for the entirety of their staff. But for large organisations, they are eligible, too—up to, of course, $150,000 if they have more than 20 staff. For more larger and much more complex companies, we are taking a case by case approach, and we’ve got some active examples under way. But we have already said that this is going to be a very difficult time for New Zealand and businesses. Not absolutely every single business will be covered for the full quantum, particularly if they are large, but we are doing our best to support as many as possible.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: What does she say to the boss of 1,200 people in a tourism-related business all over New Zealand who contacted me last night because if there isn’t “a relief package indexed to an organisation’s number of employees”, he expects to see widespread job loss across his business and the sector?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I’d say the same thing I said in my last answer. But I would also reflect on the comments that have come out of the Tourism Industry Association that has said it’s an immediate relief to tourism operators facing a devastating downturn and that it will certainly be welcome, they have acknowledged, for smaller operators. We have moved quickly, we have moved decisively, and we’ve moved with a much larger package than, for instance, what Australia has in order to keep as many people as possible in work.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: What does she say to the employer of 600 people who contacted Paul Goldsmith this morning and who said it is difficult to see how the Government’s package “provides any support” to his “simple cash-in, cash-out” predicament requiring short-term funding, otherwise workers will lose their jobs?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I’d say three things. The first thing is, of course, we’ve always said the first port of call should be banks. One of the things we’re hearing from banks is that they are not hearing from businesses as often as they should be. IRD is also a very important port of call for businesses. We also, of course, have the subsidy we’ve put in place. The fourth mechanism, of course, that we’ve been focused on is regional specific redeployment plans. We’re talking about a plan today for Tai Rāwhiti to try and use workforce, where they’ve ever had their hours reduced or the long-term prospect for work is not good, to redeploy into other areas. For tourism, we are going to move into a phase where we have to plan for an uncertain future. We’ve given 12 weeks of certainty, but we need to plan beyond that.

💬 Hon Simon Bridges: Does she accept that in the space of 24 hours, my colleagues and I have been contacted by businesses who will see a good 3,000 or more jobs go in the next week or so, and, in fact, the number will be much closer to tens and tens of thousands of workers, because her package doesn’t sufficiently cover them?

💬 Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: It is, of course, with great sadness that this whole House needs to acknowledge the cause of this is COVID-19, and we are responding as swiftly as any nation and with more generosity than any nation to that response. But what we’re dealing with is a devastating impact to our economy, and that is of course something that the entire globe is facing, but New Zealand is facing with more confidence than most.

Question No. 3—Finance

3. to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he seen on the Government’s economic response package to the global COVID-19 pandemic?

I’ve seen a range of reports that acknowledge the significant scale and the necessity of the package of measures I announced yesterday. This has come from banks, from employer organisations, and from union organisations, as well as economists. Economist Shamubeel Eaqub said the package “increases the capacity in the health sector to deal with the pandemic, a huge effort to avert job losses and business failure, [and] provides more money for those who need it most and will spend it”. I have also seen reports from individual business owners welcoming the package, including Nickii Cui, the owner of the Shanghai Restaurant in Auckland, who said, “It’s good that the Government has this policy. I feel confident … I’m hopeful because this Government is concerned about small businesses”, and, indeed, from Michael Hollings, the Wellington employer of 70 people, who said, “The Government’s relief package means we will be able to keep most of our workers in place.”

💬 Tamati Coffey: What reports has he seen on the Government’s wage subsidy scheme announced yesterday?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I’ve seen a number of reports emphasising the support that the Government’s wage subsidy scheme will provide businesses through this uncertain period from as diverse organisations as Business New Zealand and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions. Many thousands of businesses have already contacted the Ministry of Social Development about the scheme. The ministry is processing applications as fast as possible and is deploying additional resources to support this work. Businesses should ensure that they take the time to fill out the form accurately to ensure that their application can be processed as quickly as possible. I’ll repeat my request from yesterday that we understand the pressure that public servants are working under in these trying times. Mistakes will be made, but they will be corrected as soon as possible.

💬 Tamati Coffey: What reports has he seen on the need for continued fiscal support from the Government throughout the COVID-19 pandemic?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I acknowledge the commentators who’ve identified that the package I announced yesterday will need to be built upon as we move forward. This is exactly what we said yesterday. I absolutely acknowledge that this is a rapidly evolving situation which will need to go beyond these measures, and I intend to reorientate this year’s Budget to be the second phase of the broader recovery package. But we also have to acknowledge the scale of the package announced yesterday: 4 percent of GDP—bigger than the three new operating allowances for this term of Government, and larger, per capita, than almost any other country in the world.

Question No. 4—Finance

4. to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all of his policies and actions?

Yes.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Allowing for the fact that around 600,000 people work for businesses with fewer than 20 staff and there are 15,000 businesses employing more than 20 staff, does he agree that there’s, roughly speaking, a maximum of around 900,000 workers that could be covered by the wage subsidy announced yesterday?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The member is welcome to do his own calculations on this. What we’re seeing in real time is the number of businesses who want to apply for this scheme and who are being processed to do so. This is a wage subsidy scheme. It is about giving employers certainty for the next 12 weeks. Alongside the wage subsidy scheme, I implore businesses—and, indeed, I implore the Opposition to support businesses—to go and see their banks. That is the normal situation. We are here in abnormal circumstances supporting people through the wage subsidy scheme.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: What is his figure, if he doesn’t agree with mine—or if he does—for the number of workers that will be covered by the wage subsidy scheme?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: We have been focused on developing this scheme and getting it up and running within a week. We are having thousands of businesses—and, therefore, thousands of employees—who will be eligible for it. I’m sure I can take some time to give the member an estimate of the number he wants.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Well, does he agree that to spend $5.1 billion on subsidies for 12 weeks would require at least 730,000 workers to be subsidised?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The estimate of $5.1 billion, as we covered yesterday, was based on 50 percent of businesses taking this up. The member is slightly confusing and muddling the issue here, because what is happening is that some businesses who have significantly more than 21 employees will take the scheme up in order to support themselves through the 12 weeks.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: What I’m trying to work out is does he think that roughly 700,000 jobs out of roughly 900,000 eligible jobs will need to be subsidised?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As I say, I’m not spending my time doing the kinds of calculations the member wants; I’m spending my time making sure—making sure—that businesses can access the scheme in real time, and they are.

💬 SPEAKER: Order! I’m just going to ask people to settle down a little bit more from both sides.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: Will he commit today to releasing the Cabinet paper that explains all this?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The Cabinet paper will be subject to the normal rules for release.

💬 Hon Paul Goldsmith: What is the Government doing, if anything, to make it easier for public companies to raise extra capital on markets so they have more money to save jobs?

💬 Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As I said yesterday, and indeed in days before that, the Reserve Bank and the Government are coordinating our actions. There are ongoing discussions about matters to do with liquidity and capital-raising as we speak.

Question No. 5—Education

5. to the Minister of Education: What action has the Government taken to support schools in responding to COVID-19?

Yesterday, we had a confirmed case of COVID-19 who is a school student in Dunedin. The protocol between the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Education that was communicated to all principals and school leaders earlier this week was implemented. A letter was sent out to parents yesterday evening, and Logan Park High School was closed this morning. The protocol is for the school to close while close contacts are traced and put into self-isolation for 14 days. Parents will be kept regularly updated. The school undertakes a careful clean in accordance with guidance from the Ministry of Health so that all surfaces in classrooms, door handles, bathroom surfaces, and so on will have been cleaned. This is a careful, targeted approach that’s being taken by authorities. I want to repeat that there is currently no community transmission, and therefore no reason not to send young people to school across New Zealand.

💬 Jan Tinetti: What other guidance has the Ministry of Education provided to schools and early childhood education (ECE) centres across New Zealand to support them to make safe decisions for their communities?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: The guidance being provided to schools is extensive and it is regular. I want to stress that personal hygiene and reducing unnecessary physical contact—for example, hugs, handshakes, and hongi—are still amongst the most important things to do to stop the spread of the virus. Guidance has been provided to schools so that they know the risks for key activities like assemblies, school camps, and travel for sporting and cultural reasons, and they can make changes as necessary. The Ministry of Education has been providing daily updates to schools and early learning centres so that they’ve got the latest information and guidance. This is, of course, an evolving situation. The latest information and guidance is provided to schools as soon as it is available.

💬 Jan Tinetti: Why is the Government not doing mass closures of schools as a preventative action?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: While we’re seeing widespread school shutdowns elsewhere in the world, in New Zealand we do not yet have community transmission. Pre-emptive school closures can have unintended consequences—for example, children may need to be cared for by vulnerable grandparents or they may be put into social settings that could make things worse. At this stage, there is no public health reason for mass school closures. We are planning for temporary and targeted closures like what is happening at Logan Park High School where they are required. But, as the World Health Organization has confirmed, the risks to children remain low, and parents should continue to send their kids to schools and early learning centres unless they are unwell. However, as part of our wider planning for every scenario, it is still important that schools and early learning services are ready to provide distance education, not necessarily because of closure, but, in some cases, for periods of self-isolation.

💬 Jan Tinetti: What planning is the Government doing to support schools and ECE centres if more targeted closures are required based on health authorities’ advice?

💬 Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: As I’ve indicated before, we’re not currently expecting widespread school closures, but we are planning a variety of responses for different situations. The health, safety, and wellbeing of New Zealanders is of utmost importance, and we’re taking actions as required to keep people safe. The Ministry of Education is talking with all of the major telecommunications companies on a cross-industry response so that we can support those students with limited or no connectivity at home if they are required to stay home. Again, we have planned for this and we are ready to respond. Education are working closely with their health counterparts and other Government agencies to make sure that schools, kura, and early learning services have the most up-to-date information as soon as it comes to hand, and we encourage parents and caregivers to listen to their school leaders and their early learning providers and follow their advice.

Question No. 6—Regional Economic Development

6. to the Minister for Regional Economic Development: How can the Provincial Growth Fund assist the economic response to COVID-19?

I shall read a prepared answer. The Provincial Growth Fund (PGF), the largest of its type in the OECD, is already on track to see some of its major project milestones delivered. I’ve asked officials to report back on projects that are not yet contracted—about 140—and provide advice to Ministers as to how they can be better prioritised and, indeed, funding rebadged as a part of the broader package to deal with the consequences of coronavirus.

💬 Mark Patterson: How will the PGF interact with the $100 million redeployment fund announced yesterday?

💬 Hon SHANE JONES: All going well, this Friday, a number of Ministers will be accompanying the Minister for Economic Development, Mr Twyford, to the Tai Rāwhiti. The $100 million, obviously, can be conceived as an extension of the Provincial Growth Fund and the officials over the last 2½ years have been working with regions, and, indeed, I have instructed them to use some shoe leather and visit every single local government body to ensure that where there may be projects that did not meet the immediate criteria of the fund, they are brought to our attention so that they can be conceived as part of a local response, given the expectation there will be great dislocation and volatility in firms and in workforces. The situation is something that we have to face together as a nation, and it will not be subject to politicking or divisiveness by my good self.

💬 Mark Patterson: How much funding will the PGF disburse in coming months?

💬 Hon SHANE JONES: From now until June, $300 million will be paid out into regional economies and, based on agreed contract milestones, by the end of the year, an additional $700 million on top of the nigh on $500 million that is already out there. This is a significant injection of cash into provincial economies at a time where it is sorely needed.

💬 Mark Patterson: What existing PGF initiatives could help cushion the blow in our regions?

💬 Hon SHANE JONES: As I’ve said, there are 480 projects under way; nigh on $500 million has already been injected. A large percentage of that putea is in forestry—that will create employment opportunities. Further details as to what assistance we can offer the forestry sector will be elaborated in Tai Rāwhiti on Friday. To the tourism sector, we’ve already committed $360 million, and I have been encouraging every Kiwi that I see to get out in their own backyard and support their fellow Kiwis that run tourism businesses. As well as the 10,000 people who are receiving training through Te Ara Mahi and He Poutama Rangatahi schemes, that represents nigh on $200 million. These amounts of money are not an exclusive answer, but they show a sense of urgency so that firms and communities have access to this funding to tide themselves over as we deal with the transitional challenges of coping with the virus.

Question No. 7—Health

7. to the Minister of Health: How many of the 500 tests that were being processed yesterday were conducted on people who did not meet the case definition of having symptoms and either case contact or recent travel?

Firstly, can I advise the House that the final number of COVID-19 tests that were processed yesterday was 620. I would caution the member that at this time in matters medical we must rely on the advice of clinicians and the scientific experts that guide them, not on the judgment of politicians. To answer the member’s question: we would have to contact hundreds of clinicians to ask why they had their patients tested. It is not in the public interest to interrupt our medical staff to gather that information at this time. We need to unite against COVID-19 and support the important work of our doctors, nurses, and allied health staff.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: Do all of the 150 students and staff at Logan Park High School being tested meet the case definition as set out in the Ministry of Health information sheet dated 14 March 2020?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: As the member knows, the case definition was recently widened and specifically states that “due to the ongoing changing global and domestic situation, clinical judgement should apply as to whether someone who doesn’t [quite] meet the current case definition should be tested or not.” That means it’s up to clinicians and the experts that guide them to decide who needs to be tested. They should exercise their judgment, and, of course, politicians should not second-guess that.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: Will all of the students and staff tested go into 14 days of self-isolation even if their test is negative?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: My understanding is that those who are considered close contacts are being tested and are expected to go into self-isolation.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: Does he agree that asymptomatic carriers could eventually become symptomatic spreaders, and doesn’t that support a broader, earlier testing regime?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I’d like to remind the member that decisions on who is tested should be made by clinicians and the experts that guide them.

💬 Hon Michael Woodhouse: Does he believe there is a link between the expanded testing regime yesterday and the record number of announced cases today, and that if more tests were performed earlier, more cases would have been confirmed earlier?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: Given the outbreaks we are seeing overseas, it is not at all surprising that we are seeing more cases arrive from overseas. I’d remind the member that the eight cases confirmed today by the Director-General of Health were all related to international travel. It is important that we continue to test the right people, and we will continue to identify more sporadic cases. This is evidence of our public health response working as it should. We are identifying cases and doing the contact tracing to contain COVID-19.

💬 Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern: Can the Minister also confirm that routine testing of patients who are in ICU or high-dependency units with respiratory issues are part of the testing regime, which is another way of catching if there are wider issues of community transmission, for instance?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I can confirm that we have been testing for some time patients in ICUs with pneumonia. Given the high number of patients internationally that require intensive care for COVID-19, it is likely that we would have had cases reported here if there was a similar community transmission as is happening overseas.

Question No. 8—Economic Development

8. to the Minister for Economic Development: Does he stand by all the Government’s policies in relation to economic development?

Yes, especially the $12.1 billion package announced yesterday to cushion the blow from the global COVID-19 pandemic and speed up the economic recovery. The announcements made yesterday show that we’re focused on helping people stay in work and supporting our businesses and the people most vulnerable to COVID, like the elderly. This, of course, is all in addition to the extra $12 billion the Government has already committed for infrastructure through the New Zealand Upgrade Programme.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: What advice has he sought or received on the number of job losses that will be caused by COVID-19?

💬 Hon PHIL TWYFORD: The Government has shared with the Opposition and the public the advice that we’ve had that this is almost certainly going to result in a recession. It’s going to have a profound impact on our economy. I don’t believe that precise modelling is available yet on the exact numbers of likely job losses, but, as the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister have said, I think, repeatedly publicly, this is going to hurt, and there will be a very significant number of jobs lost.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: How many job losses are estimated from medium-sized businesses who are not covered by the Government’s support package announced yesterday?

💬 Hon PHIL TWYFORD: I will repeat the answer that I gave to the earlier question: precise modelling is not available. The situation is moving too quickly and there are too many unknowns, but I think everybody understands this is a serious economic shock, perhaps more concerning and having more of an impact than the global financial crisis did.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Why is the Government’s wage subsidy announced yesterday limited to 20 employees rather than also supporting people who work in medium-sized businesses, who are facing job losses of between 50 and up to 100 workers?

💬 Hon PHIL TWYFORD: Well, I think as the member knows, small and medium sized businesses will find the wage subsidy programme a very significant help. It is worth more than $5 billion, it’s going to cause a massive injection of cash into the economy over the next two to three months, and it’s designed to cushion the shock and help businesses transition.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: What additional policies or actions will he consider and take to save jobs, given the tourism sector has said that up to 100,000 jobs will be lost in tourism and accommodation following the Government’s support package announcement yesterday?

💬 Hon PHIL TWYFORD: As well as the wage subsidy scheme, the Government had already announced $11 million to support the tourism sector. We’ve done work on redeployment. Minister Jones, just a little while ago, explained to the House what we’re doing in Tai Rāwhiti, and efforts to find redeployment opportunities for particular industries and particular regions will be ongoing. We’re talking with businesses directly, we are visiting the regions, we’re talking to the key economic stakeholders, and, on top of the substantial announcements that were made yesterday, we’ll continue to work with industry to see how, together, we can work through this for the good of New Zealand.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Is he aware that of the $11 million announced by the Government to support tourism, $10 million was to promote New Zealand overseas so foreigners could visit us, and, if that’s the case, will that money be reprioritised and made available to medium-sized tourism businesses that are facing considerable job losses and their businesses may not survive?

💬 Hon PHIL TWYFORD: The money has been redirected; of course it won’t be spent on destination marketing now, but there is a commitment there to work with the industry. As the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have said, we’re not going to be able to save every job or every firm, and the tourism industry is up against it right now. But we are committed to working with them to get through this so that their position when the market changes, when conditions change, is that they’ll be there and able to take advantage of opportunities when we get through this.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Can the Minister tell the House what that $10 million has been redirected to and when that announcement was made?

💬 Hon PHIL TWYFORD: It’s been redirected to the development of a recovery plan for the industry.

💬 SPEAKER: I didn’t want to interrupt the Minister at the time, but there appears to be a growing habit in the House of referring to Minsters in inappropriate ways. We have, on my right, the Hon Shane Jones, or the Minister for Regional Economic Development. “Minister” is not an honorific and should not be used as such.

Question No. 9—Social Development

9. to the Minister for Social Development: What initiatives is the Ministry of Social Development undertaking as part of the economic package announced yesterday responding to COVID-19?

As announced yesterday, the Government is implementing an employer wage subsidy as well as a COVID-19 leave payment scheme. Both of these initiatives have been administered and implemented by the Ministry of Social Development (MSD), with support from the Inland Revenue Department. We also announced the lift of main benefits by $25 per week and the doubling of the winter energy payment for 2020. These initiatives are on top of what we have already put in place, like the stand-up of the Government Helpline, deployment of rapid response teams, and the removal of stand-down periods for main benefit. As I said in the House last week, our focus has to be on ensuring MSD remains poised and ready to respond to COVID-19, and we are.

💬 Priyanca Radhakrishnan: What response has the Minister received about these initiatives?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: The response to date has been positive from across the sectors. Kirk Hope, chief executive of Business New Zealand, said, “This is a really strong and balanced response from the Government to help support New Zealand businesses—and the economy.” Dennis Maga from FIRST Union praised the Government’s response because it looks after people, not just businesses. He said, “So far this [has been] the best response that I have seen from a Government regarding this coronavirus outbreak”, and Darryl Evans from Māngere Budgeting Services agreed: “I’m actually really impressed, to be honest … Benefits will go up $25 a week, that’s been needed for a very very long time. I’m absolutely a supporter of that.” He went on to say he believes it will help people buy another three or four meals a week. The broad spectrum of support we are receiving demonstrates that we are delivering on our commitment to act decisively and with compassion.

💬 Priyanca Radhakrishnan: Why are these initiatives integral to the Government’s economic response?

💬 Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Our immediate goal is to support people and businesses as we weather the impact of COVID-19. The package includes $5.1 billion in wage subsidies for COVID-19 - affected businesses—that will cushion the blow and position businesses for recovery—and $2.8 billion in business tax changes to free up cash flow. We also know that initiatives like benefit increases are a tried and true mechanism for economic stimulus, because we know this money goes straight into the purchase of goods and services. Ensuring that workers and those on low incomes are supported during a time like this is incredibly important to a well-rounded economic response. The Government is pulling out all stops to protect the health of our economy, and at the centre is the wellbeing of New Zealanders. As was said by our Minister of Finance, now is the time for us to look out for each other, our communities, and our businesses.

Question No. 10—Tourism

10. to the Minister of Tourism: Does he stand by all the Government’s policies in relation to the tourism industry?

Yes, in the context they were made, but the member is aware that times have changed. COVID-19 has had a massive impact on the tourism industry, and we need to adapt and change our approach to tourism in response.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: Does he agree with the statement of the CEO of Tourism Industry Aotearoa that up to 100,000 jobs will be lost in the tourism and accommodation sector and, in respect of the wage subsidy, “That cap of $150,000 per employer means you can subsidise no more than 20 jobs. We’ve got businesses who are looking to lay off 50, 100, 300 workers at the moment.”?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: Yes, we’ve said that there will be job losses. What we’re doing is making sure we’re cushioning the blow for the economy as we respond to the economic impacts of this global pandemic. Yesterday’s package and, in particular, the wage subsidies announcement will go some way to support tourism businesses. We’re making sure we’re protecting those at risk of losing their jobs by supporting businesses. For those who do lose their jobs, we’re making sure there is more support available for them and their families.

💬 Hon Todd McClay: What specific support is he considering, given that thousands of tourism and accommodation businesses are facing many months, if not years, of little, if any, income, and how will he help these businesses and their workers, specifically, to survive?

💬 Hon KELVIN DAVIS: That question has been answered many times in the House in the last two days—I mean, as we’ve said, there are the wage subsidies. Treasury has been directed to work on support for large and complex businesses that need support above the $150,000 cap. This would likely be on a case by case basis, and we’ll have more to announce shortly. We’ve got to remember that yesterday was the first tranche, and there’s another tranche coming up—the Minister on my right has announced that—that will be happening around Budget time.

Question No. 11—Employment

11. to the Minister of Employment: How many people are forecast to become unemployed as a result of COVID-19, and how many of those will be under the age of 25, if any?

The latest household labour force survey had the unemployment rate at 4 percent and, prior to the COVID-19 outbreak, this was one of the lowest rates in nearly a decade. This puts our country, New Zealand, in a strong position, leading into what we now face as a rapidly evolving situation due to COVID-19. As the Minister of Finance said yesterday, advice that we have had is that the effect of COVID-19 in terms of job losses will be greater than the global financial crisis, when unemployment reached 6.7 percent. What we know is that this will have a significant impact on unemployment, which is why yesterday the Minister of Finance announced the significant economic stimulus package to help cushion the blow.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I’d like an answer to the question that I asked.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, I—the member is aware that she has no right to a specific yes/no or a particular number. The member is aware of the long series of Speakers’ rulings in that area.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It’s a primary question on notice, and the tradition, usually, in this House has been accepted that a full and accurate answer, and an answer that answers the question when it is a primary on notice, is to be expected.

💬 SPEAKER: Yeah, and what I’m telling the member is that it is also a long tradition in this House that answers aren’t always as specific or as definite as members asking the question want them to be. I will, however, say that on occasion, Ministers have pre-prepared answers which sound a bit like scripts to questions other than the ones that were asked. This one I’m not putting into that category or I would have ruled it out, and I’m going to ask that the member, if he’s not in a position to give a specific answer to supplementary questions, makes that clear early and not use it as an opportunity for point-scoring.

💬 Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The problem with this question is that there’s nobody who’s able to answer it because it’s asking for the specific number of people. If it had asked for a percentage or a proximity to a percentage, maybe the Minister could answer, but there’s nobody in this country with any intellectual integrity who would even try to answer a question like that.

💬 SPEAKER: Well, I want to thank the member for his contribution. There’s no point of order on the floor at the moment, and I think the matter had been dealt with, possibly slightly more gently, by myself.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Has the Minister asked for forecasts?

💬 Hon WILLIE JACKSON: I think the key point to make here is that there is significant uncertainty about how this will play out, and any forecasts are likely to be inaccurate. So we are, obviously, talking about this, but this is an evolving situation, and what’s important right now is that we provide certainty and support to employers and to workers and to communities.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: What is the Minister’s plan to reduce the number of those who become unemployed as a result of COVID-19?

💬 Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Sorry, I missed that. Can you repeat the question?

💬 Hon Louise Upston: What is the Minister’s plan to reduce the number of those who will become unemployed through COVID-19?

💬 Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Well, as has been said over the last few days, we are working closely with communities right now—right now. On Friday, myself, Minister Jones, and Minister Twyford will be going to the Tai Rāwhiti, where we will be talking to the community and talking about deployment and talking about the problems that are happening at the moment. Also, we have a significant programme in terms of schools and a skills-based programme that we’re working on right now.

💬 Kieran McAnulty: How does yesterday’s economic stimulus announcement support those under the age of 25?

💬 Hon WILLIE JACKSON: The announcement is the first stage of our response. We’re focused on helping people—young people, particularly—stay in work and in training. That’s why the wage subsidy scheme was such a key feature yesterday. We’re putting $5.1 billion in wage subsidies for affected businesses in all sectors and regions, and 97 percent of New Zealand businesses have fewer than 20 employees—we must make that point again and again. This means the scheme will cover the workforces of over half a million businesses, and we are continuing to look at what support we can provide for larger employers. It’s important to remember that these businesses can access up to $150,000 under the scheme. We’ve acted swiftly to give employers and workers some certainty, and we’re very pleased and proud of the response we’ve had so far.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: What is the redeployment plan?

💬 Hon WILLIE JACKSON: It’s a plan that we’re working on right now. As I said, it’s an evolving situation, and it will all be revealed this Friday in the Tai Rāwhiti. The member is welcome to attend.

💬 Hon Louise Upston: Does the Minister still expect to achieve the 4,000 Mana in Mahi places promised by the Prime Minister?

💬 Hon WILLIE JACKSON: We’re obviously focused in on the crisis right now. Mana in Mahi is part of the kōrero, part of the discussion. We remain focused on trying to achieve those numbers, but we realise we’re not going to kid anyone in the House today. We’re in a crisis situation, so everything—everything—is going to be tough over the next couple of years, but we’re focused in on that kaupapa still.

Question No. 12—Health

12. to the Minister of Health: What changes have been made to this year’s influenza vaccination campaign in response to COVID-19?

This morning, Minister Genter and I announced that we have brought forward—

💬 SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume his seat. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough earlier on. “Minister” is not an honorific. You can refer to the Hon Julie Anne Genter or the Associate Minister of Health. Start again.

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: This morning, the Hon Julie Anne Genter and I announced that we have brought forward the start date of the influenza vaccination campaign to get ahead of COVID-19. The flu vaccine will not protect people against COVID-19, but more flu vaccine is expected to reduce demand on our hospitals over the critical winter period. This is New Zealand’s largest flu vaccination campaign, with 30 percent more vaccines available than last year. The campaign begins today for our most vulnerable New Zealanders. This is two weeks earlier than previous campaigns, which normally begin in April.

💬 Angie Warren-Clark: How is more flu vaccine expected to help the health system?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: We are busy preparing for a busy winter as the global COVID-19 pandemic sweeps across the globe. Vaccinations reduce incidents of the flu and they protect our most vulnerable, who are the people most likely to get sick and consequently be hospitalised with the flu. Flu vaccinations will improve our health system’s ability to cope with the expected higher demands at hospitals from COVID-19. It’s critical that we do all we can to prevent a bad flu season this year so that we can focus on responding to COVID-19.

💬 Angie Warren-Clark: Which groups will be able to get free flu vaccines?

💬 Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: People who are 65 and over, pregnant, or living with a chronic health condition, and children with respiratory conditions will be able to get a free vaccine from their GP or pharmacist. Healthcare workers will be able to get it free from their employer. Our top priority is to vaccinate people who are most vulnerable to getting sick this winter. Most Kiwis will agree that this is the right thing to do. Other New Zealanders will be able to get the flu vaccine from Monday, 13 April.