Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill

I will take just a brief call in respect of clauses 1 and 2. Members would have noticed, no doubt, as they read through the detail of clause 2, that the legislation will come into force on a date that is 8 months after the day on which it receives the Royal assent. I am advised that a substantial transition period such as this is designed to allow regulations to be developed to deal with one or two particular matters. One is the necessary forms and the usual kind of stuff that goes with these types of transitional provisions and periods. The second is the official assignee’s gearing up for the necessary orders of profit forfeiture, and the like, to be fully developed and put in place by the necessary institutions. Although 8 months is not an ideal period of time, it is the length of time that the select committee—I was not there for this particular issue—was no doubt advised these things take.

I take this opportunity to thank all members of the Committee of the whole House for their support of this legislation. It is something that we think, as no doubt the previous Government thought, will make a difference.

I rise to take a call on the title and commencement clauses of the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill. This is a good title in that it is clear and describes exactly what the bill sets out to do. It is really what we have been talking about this afternoon: the ability of the law of this land to effectively get at and recover the proceeds of crime. But within that—and I will make the point again, because it is central—we need to look at exactly what the proceeds of crime encompass, and at what we are seeking to recover by amending the legislation. We have heard it said before, by members from both sides of the Chamber, that the law we have at present, although seeking to achieve broadly the same fundamental and philosophical aims, simply does not have the teeth to truly get in and recover those proceeds of crime. Here we have a bill that began, as we have heard, under the previous Labour Government—and I commend it for that—but we, as a National-led Government, are now prioritising it through to its completion in this House.

The nature of the proceeds that this bill aims to bring within its ambit is considerably widened, and this is really the key point of the debate this afternoon. It is not just the proceeds of crime, it is not the money someone stole from the bank or the methamphetamine that is ripped off from the chemist, but the wealth that those criminal offences bring to the criminal element that organises that sort of offending. We have to be a lot more creative as law drafters and lawmakers to set up a system of recovery that can look much more holistically at where the money is in crime, how it gets there, and how we can get it back.

The title of the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill is clear and descriptive as to what exactly the legislation will do. It will do that, because it will put teeth into the existing philosophy and will ensure that the proceeds of crime in New Zealand can be far more effectively recovered and far more effectively removed from the entities that are benefiting from crime. Importantly, we are not limiting ourselves to the tainted property specifically; the recovery of any benefit or even goods of an equivalent value that can be removed certainly will achieve those same aims of the bill, because we are seeking to ensure that crime does not pay. That is why we have heard this afternoon in the debate that the bill goes on to target any fruits of a tainted tree. It is a clear maxim of law that fruits of a tainted tree are as tainted as the tree itself. That is why we know that we cannot have good title to goods that have come down through a tainted process.

We have talked before in the debate about the important safeguards in place to ensure those powers are not misused and misapplied. I think that we can have confidence that the drafters of this legislation have worked very hard to put in place appropriate safeguards to make sure that, although we are increasing significantly the powers of the New Zealand Police to punish gangs and the criminal element through hitting at their asset base, we are doing so in a way that enables our very talented and highly respected judiciary to ensure that the powers are not used inappropriately.

I just comment also in respect of this title clause that the mere passing of legislation called the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill sends a message, which is an important part of the work we do in this House. It sends a message that this Parliament—and I say “Parliament” because of the cross-party support that this bill has enjoyed—will not tolerate gangs, criminal organisations, organised crime, or anyone else who seeks to make money from breaking the law. We will not tolerate that sort of behaviour and allow those organisations to thrive.

To be able to stand up in each of our electorates in all parts of this country and say to New Zealanders that this Parliament has passed the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill is a thing to be proud of. It makes a very clear statement about what we, as a Government, as a Parliament, and as members in this House are prepared to accept and about the standard that we demand. Where we see clear evidence that the law is not achieving the ends that this House had for it, then it is certainly incumbent upon all of us to take steps to address that situation. This bill certainly does that. I wish to commend, once more, the Minister in the chair, the Hon Simon Power, for bringing the bill before the House.

I am pleased to take a call on this particular part of the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill, and to reflect on the work of the Law and Order Committee as it was when we processed this legislation through the select committee, under the wise stewardship of Martin Gallagher, the chair, and then later Ron Mark. A number of select committee members had very full interaction with submitters coming before the committee, and amongst themselves, to try to get this right.

It was interesting to note that early on in the piece it appeared that the then Government was quite strongly in favour of the Serious Fraud Office being the recovery body for this bill; then later on it seemed to change its mind. The bill was obviously targeted at organised crime, and particularly at gangs, and the view of the National members early in the piece was that the New Zealand Police should be the recovery body because it was the police who had an understanding of how gangs worked—essentially of who was who in the zoo—when it came to organised crime throughout New Zealand. In actual fact the Serious Fraud Office, as it was then, did not have the institutional knowledge, in the view of the National members, to be able to fully implement and enforce the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill as it was drafted.

We are pleased to note that part-way through that process there seemed to be a bit of a change of heart on the part of the then Government. That was slightly embarrassing to the Labour members of the committee, because they were not aware that Mr Goff had had a bit of a change of mind and that was where the bill was going. There was a bit of a lack of transparency as to why there seemed to be that reluctance, but we got there in the end.

It is sad to note that some parties in the Committee are not in support of the bill, and it is a long time since I have heard a call from the Māori Party or the Green Party articulating clearly the reasons why those members are not in favour of it. I recall that the last time we were in Committee on this bill, the Māori Party had a number of concerns around people with interests in multiple-owned property, particularly land, and around what effects, for instance, a restraining order or a seizure affecting one person with an interest in the land would have on the other parties with interests in the land. I know of a number of instances of cases where pockets of land have been used by certain members of a family or an interested group to grow cannabis or to store stolen property. If that land was then seized or restrained in some way, it would deprive those people with an extended interest in the land from exercising that interest. Anyone would recognise that that situation is unfair, particularly if those people had no knowledge of what was actually going on on the site—and the vast majority of those people would have had no such knowledge.

But within Part 2, which we have just been discussing, we have tried to explain the terms of the sections that allow for people to come and give evidence, to elicit and adduce evidence, and to make applications before the court. This recognises that they will have the opportunity to speak to the court, and to take action against the removal or the restraint of the land or property if they had no knowledge of what had been going on there. Where, for instance, 20 or 50 members of a group might have an interest in the land but the criminal activity that had been going on, on that land, related to only one or two of them, I cannot see a situation where a reasonable application would be made that that land should be taken by the Crown, and that the property rights of the other interested parties should be removed.

I understand, then, why the Māori Party has had those reservations about the legislation in the past, but I fail to see why those reservations are maintained in the light of the ramifications of the provisions within Part 2. I have also yet to hear from the Green Party as to why it is opposed.

Kia ora. I am happy to take a call on this matter. The first thing I will make a point of is that the title of this bill, the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill, is an absolute misnomer. It is totally deceptive. This bill does not deal with just recovering the proceeds of crime; it also deals with the forfeiture of tainted land—that is, land that may have been used to grow crops that could be used to produce drugs, for example. I reiterate that the land might have been used for those purposes, because the bill deals with issues where there is suspected crime, not just where crime has been proved. The bill relates to land where there is a suspicion that crime has been occurring.

With regard to the matter that was dealt with by Mr Borrows—that procedures are in place for owners of Māori land to able to speak to this matter—I have a concern about that. In order for those people to be able to make an application to the court so that the land they have an interest in is not forfeited in this way, they have to be aware that the matter is coming before the court. When the Crown makes its application to the court, will it send out notices to all owners of Māori land so that they can come along and make this application? There is a real problem here, because, as owners of Māori land, we do not know what is going on on our land because we are not living there. I have made this point before. We are not always aware of what is happening on our land. We are not always aware that the police have arrested one of our whanaunga members and that that person will be coming to court, and that he or she is also an owner of land in this block.

There are real problems with this bill and they have not been dealt with. Those are the reasons why the Māori Party is opposed to this bill. Those problems have not been adequately dealt with. Although it is good news that this issue will be dealt with at the High Court level rather than the District Court level, there is already a precedent at the District Court level where Māori land has been taken by the Crown. It has been ordered to be forfeited by the court and given to the Crown, and it will continue to happen. This is of concern for us. Kia ora.

I rise in support of the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill. I note that the Labour Opposition has been somewhat disappointing. Those members have been complaining about this Government dragging this out, yet the same members become vitriolic when we do not debate bills. When we give them the opportunity to debate bills, they sit there and look dumbfounded about what they are supposed to be doing. The reason I make that comment is that this is a very important bill.

💬 Hon Members: Our bill!

Those members are claiming victory and saying that it is their bill. This bill was introduced on 13 March 2007. We are now over 2 years down the track—2 years. What have you been doing for the last 2 years? That is what I say to you. You claim this is your bill, and for 2 years you have done nothing. It is only because this National Government has come along that this bill is being progressed. National has acted to make our streets safe. This bill is part of a suite of actions we have taken to bring safety to our streets and to address the issues around crime, while those members on the Opposition benches have done nothing. The bill went to the Law and Order Committee, where, through the wise counsel of the National members on that select committee, it was enhanced.

Having said that, I do not want to focus on the negative of the Labour members’ inaction; I want to focus on the positives contained in this bill. Firstly, in addressing the title component of this bill, we should focus on what the objectives are. They are to confiscate property from persons who have engaged in, or who have profited from, significant criminal activity, to reduce the rewards from crime for individuals, and to reduce the attraction of crime to potential offenders. The bill is all about hitting criminals where it hurts and getting into their piggy banks so that when they come out of jail, after they have served their time, there will be no nest egg left. The current legislation, the Proceeds of Crime Act 1991, is not working, so it is necessary to repeal it. This Government is acting to achieve that. Instead of sitting on this legislation, we are bringing it into place.

I want to contrast the activity and leadership shown by the Minister of Justice in pursuing this suite of activities with the previous Government’s inactivity. For instance, during the 2005 election, the previous Government promised to “hit gangs where it hurts” by removing the proceeds of crime.

💬 Hon Member: What happened?

It took the previous Government 2 years to introduce a bill, and still it did not get that bill through.

💬 Shane Ardern: It sat on the Order Paper for 18 months.

There we are; there was total inactivity. We have come along and placed this bill before the House because we attach much importance to it.

It is the gangs that we are hitting in this process. They are the modern-day mafia.

💬 Hon Steve Chadwick: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I understood that we were talking about the commencement aspect of this bill. It is a very small area of debate and it is not wide ranging. In fact, the Government has been filibustering and it has taken 14 speeches. I think it would be really great if, when speaking on our bill that the Government supports, Government members could stick to just the commencement aspect of this bill.

💬 Hon Simon Power: Of course, the Opposition whip will know that when discussing clauses 1 and 2 in the Committee stage, the debate is wide ranging and offers members the opportunity to sum up their arguments as they put them in other parts.

The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): I draw members’ attention to the review of the Standing Orders in December 2003. This is an unusual thing to do. I refer members to page 63, where the Standing Orders Committee, which the House endorsed, said: “However, we consider that, when debating the preliminary clauses at the end, members should have some latitude to summarise, and make concluding remarks about, the issues they have raised during the committee’s consideration of the bill.” So the member has some latitude to raise wider issues.

I just advise the member that, from time to time, he tends to use the word “you”. He talks about “you” doing this and “you” doing that. I do not do any of those things, nor do I want to. It is a difficult convention to debate in the third person. I invite the member to continue and to take on board the comments that he is entitled to summarise, but I advise that he should still speak on the bill.

Thank you for your guidance, Mr Chairperson, and I deeply apologise for dragging you into the discussion. In fact, it is a discussion that the National members seem to be having amongst themselves, because there is a lack of engagement from the Opposition benches in respect of the very serious and important bill that we are discussing.

As I was saying, in terms of the organised crime that affects New Zealand, we are talking about gangs and they are our modern-day equivalent of the mafia. The gangs are wide ranging. We talk about Black Power, the Mongrel Mob, Highway 61, the Killer Bees, and the Tribesmen. They are endless, and we can review the literature.

I was not going to take a call on this, but I was up in my office listening to the rant from Mr Quinn. When I left the Chamber, the Minister in the chair, the Hon Simon Power, had just made an intervention. I thought it was a very good intervention, of a very positive nature, around the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill, given that the previous Labour Government had authored the bill and the current Government is picking it up.

But I must say that Mr Quinn is doing his usual. I will enlighten him about why members on this side of the Chamber are not taking multiple calls: firstly, we wrote most of the bill; secondly, we support it; and, thirdly, the Government wants it passed. I am sure the Minister in the chair is on his second wave of smelling salts to keep himself awake—I do not mean any disrespect to him.

💬 Hon Simon Power: None taken.

I know why! His own members are trying to filibuster the bill. So I say to Mr Quinn, who speaks in his own very uncharitable way, that I think this bill is absolutely supported by all or most parties, or certainly by parties on this side of the Chamber. I tell Mr Quinn that the reason why Opposition members are not taking multiple calls on this bill is that we wrote it while in Government, and now his party, in office, supports it. I would have thought that Mr Quinn, the Minister in the chair, and the New Zealand people would like the thing passed. I say to the new member, who chirps like a parrot from the back row, that rather than being uncharitable and trying to score political points, he might actually want to address the bill. It is good legislation. When it comes into force 8 months after the day it receives Royal assent, it will actually do a lot, I tell that member, towards addressing organised crime and gang activity in New Zealand. So I would have thought that as we go through the commencement and title clauses, this is not a time to start scoring cheap political points.

I say to Mr Quinn that in this place of robust debate there are times, once or twice, when you do actually put politics aside, when you do put aside the colours of red, blue, green, and yellow, the political flags of the House, and when you do actually support what the people want—

💬 Paul Quinn: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. As Chairperson you discussed with me particularly the fact that I had used the word “you”. I have listened to the member saying “you” three times in the last minute; I would ask you to address the same comments to the Opposition member.

The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): The member makes a point, but when the word “you” is used, it is very often in the context of a sentence. If someone talks about “the party” etc., then goes on to mention “you”, the person is connecting the word “you” to the principle of the sentence. On most of the occasions, that was the case with Mr Cosgrove. I invite Mr Cosgrove to continue his speech.

I will say that that intervention was better than the speech I heard on the TV. The best Mr Quinn can do is to be advised by his colleague, as she sits beside him on the Government benches, to raise a point of order and break up a speech. I suppose we all did that as new members, maybe, but some of us have learnt.

I say to Mr Quinn that now is not the time for cheap political points. Now is not the time to play politics. On this side of the Chamber, we support this legislation. We support its commencement date. We support the provisions, and the new amendments that have been lodged to strengthen it. We have not taken calls because we will not waste taxpayers’ money; we support the legislation and we would like to see it passed. [Interruption] Yes, I will stand up for 5 minutes, because I think it pertinent to address the impertinence of that member who has just spoken. I say to Mr Quinn that maybe this is a good learning experience for him. Perhaps other members who are sitting around him, like Mr Ardern, for whom I have respect, will take Mr Quinn aside in the dinner break and suggest to him that there are one or two occasions in this Chamber when we should act in a bipartisan way for the good of the country. I am sure that people watching today hope that we will act in a bipartisan way, that we will support the Minister in the chair—it is now his bill although it was formerly ours—and that we will get on and pass it.

I believe that the Government has taken 14 calls. Mr Power might want to get the Parliamentary Library to examine the record of filibustering from his own Government, but I am sure he would like to see this legislation expedited and passed rather swiftly. We on this side of the Chamber support it. We wrote most of it. We support it even though the Government has put it up. I think it will address, substantially, gang and organised crime in our country. I invite Mr Quinn, perhaps over a good feed of bangers and mash in the dinner break, to reflect on his own conduct.