Speaker’s Rulings — Stranger in the Lobbies—President of Council of Trade Unions

I was asked to rule on the presence of the president of the Council of Trade Unions in a room off the Ayes lobby. I understand that the person concerned was escorted to the room by a member of the House. On that basis, the person’s entry to the lobby was not challenged. The member, however, should not have brought the person into the lobby in that way. Ministers are entitled to have advisers present in the lobby and on the right of the chair when a bill is being considered by the House, and had the president been present in that capacity as an invited adviser, there could have been no objection to his presence. But that was not the case here. I remind members that while the House is sitting, they should not bring other persons into the lobbies, except where that person is acting as an adviser to a Minister or member in charge of a bill. A further point was raised about the visitor’s identity card. He did have a proper identity card for entry to the building, but as I have said, that did not authorise access to the lobbies.

I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you for your ruling. I just seek a couple of points of clarification, if I may. Firstly, are you advising the House that Mr Ross Wilson was here not at the invitation of a Minister, but of a member?

💬 Mr SPEAKER: That is what I said.

Thank you. Secondly, since that is the case, in accordance with the guidance that you gave at the commencement of question time today, does that mean that we now have a situation whereby a particular member is in breach of Standing Order 42? And what avenues are available to members of the Opposition in that case?

As far as I am concerned, I regard this incident as a breach. But the breach has been acknowledged, and I have accepted the member’s apology in that regard. I regard the incident as closed.

I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder whether you could do the House the courtesy of advising the House who the member was, because I think that the House deserves to know that. Members got into difficulty earlier on today, when they did not know who it was. I wonder whether you could do that now.

Yes, it was the senior Government whip.

I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Just as a follow-up issue, something that I am not clear about, and that I think it may be worth taking away and considering, is the process by which a person becomes an adviser. It appears to me that you are not advised of who the advisers are, but that it is really an informal process we have, where a Minister says, for instance: “These three people are my advisers.” For example, Mr Wilson could have been declared an adviser after the event or 5 minutes before it. I just wonder whether it is not worth considering that process, so that we have some formality before the event about who is and who is not an adviser.

I thank the member for that comment. As far as I am concerned, if a Minister wants to have an adviser, he or she can have whomsoever he or she likes. But that is the Minister’s responsibility, or that of the person who is in charge of a bill. It may be a private member’s bill, and the private member can have an adviser in that capacity. I trust that when members and Ministers have advisers and have them representing them on their behalf, they accede to the Standing Orders.

I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Would it not be appropriate that you be advised of them and of their names before the event?

💬 Mr SPEAKER: No, that has not been the case in all the 38 years that I have been here. It may be something to look at in the security policy, and I will look at that particular issue. But at the moment I am going on the rule that advisers are there at the invitation of the person in charge of a bill—whether that is a Minister or a private member, depending on the type of bill we are dealing with. I will ensure that that is the case.

I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think that you are on exactly the right track, and I may be able to offer some help. It may be appropriate that you take Mr Hide’s suggestion and say that when a Minister or a private member who is in the chair chooses to have an adviser who is not a Government employee, that Minister or member advises the Speaker. Traditionally, the advisers are departmental officials. They come and go and they do not all have the badges, but they are often heads of department and very senior people. I do not think that anyone in the House is complaining about that, but it would be useful for you to know when the advisers were non-Government employees.

💬 Mr SPEAKER: I thank the member for that point of order, and wonder if he would be prepared to write to me in that regard. I will then have something to consider, because I am very much in sympathy with the point he makes.