Māori Television Service Bill

Madam Deputy Speaker, you have been recalled at the request of the Hon Ken Shirley. The issue relates to the exclusion from the Chamber of the honourable member Rodney Hide prior to the dinner break. My understanding, because I was not in the Chair prior to 6 o’clock, was that Mr Hide was asked to leave the Chamber, and was instructed to do so until the rising of the House this evening. The matter of the interpretation of the Hon Georgina te Heuheu’s Māori amendment has been taken care of, and that is sitting on the Table for members to look at. As to the exclusion, I upheld the decision of the previous Chairperson. As a result of that, there has been a request that the Speaker be recalled to rule on the matter.

We are in quite an extraordinary situation here, Madam Deputy Speaker. We are in a situation—and my comment is not intended as a reflection on yourself—whereby you were serving members as our Chairperson in Committee when this incident arose. As matters have developed, I have found it necessary, at the recommencement after the dinner break, to come down to the Chamber to raise the very serious point of the ejection of an ACT member, Mr Rodney Hide. I have found it necessary to recall the Speaker, and now, of course, I find that the same person who was acting as the Chairperson in the Committee has returned as the Speaker. I stress that I am not casting a reflection on you. I am just making the observation that that is the situation we are in. I concede that I was not present in the Chamber—I am sorry, do we have a constitutional matter, Madam Deputy Speaker?

💬 Hon Mark Burton: It might pay just to wait a moment.

💬 Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Simich is available.

In the sense of natural justice, I think it would be helpful if Mr Simich took the Chair.

💬 Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER: OK. Mr Simich will take the Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson): Mr Assistant Speaker, prior to the dinner break, during the debate on the Māori Television Service Bill, the Chair excluded from the Chamber the honourable member Rodney Hide. When the Committee resumed at 7.30 p.m., a number of points of order were raised requesting that the honourable member return. One of the issues of concern was the interpretation of the Hon Georgina te Heuheu’s amendment. That matter has been taken care of, and the translation of the amendment is now on the Table for members to see. In relation to Mr Hide’s exclusion from the Chamber, he was excluded until the House rises tonight. I chose to support the recommendation of the previous Chairperson. The decision had been made, and I upheld the decision of the Chairperson. That has not been acceptable to some members and, as a result, at the request of the Hon Ken Shirley, you have been recalled.

I should say at the outset that I was not present in the Chamber when the incident occurred, but I have had the situation reported to me. My understanding of the facts is that Mr Hide, in response to a Supplementary Order Paper in the name of Georgina te Heuheu on clause 1, “Title”, sought a translation. The Supplementary Order Paper was presented in Māori, as is a member’s right, but Mr Hide, not being fluent in Māori, felt very strongly about the fact that he was not able to give meaning to it, and, therefore, as a member of the House of Representatives, was unable to participate fairly in the debate. He persistently sought a translation. He felt that he was protecting his right—and I agree that he was—to debate the matter from a position of understanding and knowledge of what the words actually meant. My understanding is that, because of his persistence on that point, he was ejected from the Chamber by the Chairperson. However, at the point of ejection, it was not conveyed to him what the duration of that ejection might be. I have consulted the ACT whip, Muriel Newman, and she assures me that she has not been advised of the duration of the period of ejection. We accept that it was the Chairperson’s right to eject any member for what was deemed, at the time, to be disorderly.

However, on reassuming the debate, following the dinner break, we have learnt that the incoming chairman of the Committee, Mr Ross Robertson, has seen fit to ensure that there is a translation available, and I commend him for that. That really upholds the point of principle that my colleague Rodney Hide requested, and for which he was unfairly, I believe, ejected from the Chamber. I do not wish to relitigate that. I accept that that would be inappropriate. The issue at hand now is what is fair and reasonable for that ejection period. I put it to you, Mr Chairman, that Mr Hide, having had his time in the sin bin, should be allowed to resume his place in this House of Representatives.

As the member said, he was not in the Chamber at the time, but he is right in a number of the things that he said. However, in one or two areas it is important to add to the information. As I sat in the chair that I am now in, I observed that Mr Hide was not only warned, with some frustration, over the number of the points of order that were taken but, perhaps more relevantly, was warned over a number of interjections—indeed, interjections during the taking of votes. The presiding officer exercised her judgment at the time as to the appropriateness of that. She took her decision, and I hope, as I said earlier, that all members would uphold the authority of the Chair. That said, in order to make progress, and at the suggestion of the chief Opposition whip, I seek leave of the House to have Mr Hide readmitted at 9 p.m. for the remainder of the evening, as a demonstration of good faith on behalf of all members of the House to see progress made with the bill. Frankly, most members would prefer to see progress made and useful and sensible debate engaged in rather than endless procedural points of order. Accordingly, I seek leave.

The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich): Leave has been sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.

I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that Mr Hide feels very passionately about this bill and is very keen to participate. I therefore seek leave of the House for Mr Hide to be readmitted at 8.30 p.m.

The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich): I thank the member. Leave has just been sought and granted by the House for the term of exclusion to end at 9 p.m. Of course, the member is entitled to seek leave to have that time changed. That is then entirely up to the House. Before the member seeks leave, if he wishes to do so, I will cover a few points. Firstly, we are not here to decide on the fairness or otherwise of why the member was excluded from the Chamber. It is a simple fact that the member was excluded, and that was done by the Chairperson at the time. The subsequent Chairperson has upheld that decision. Whether anyone was aware of the time of exclusion is relevant, but the fact is that the Chair excluded the member for the remainder of the sitting. If the member was not aware of that, or his whips were not aware of that, then they could have checked with the Chair at the time or with the Serjeant-at-Arms. That is not a difficult procedure. I think that we should continue. The time, set by leave of the House, that Mr Hide may return is 9 p.m. If there is a further request to be made, the member may do so.

I seek of the House for Mr Hide to resume his seat in the House of Representatives at 8.30.

The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich): Leave has been sought. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is objection. I now intend to place the House back into Committee.